The Shale Shifter: Frankie Wainman Jr. Interview
It's me, Mark Stone and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I sit down with Frankie Wainman Jr., one of Yorkshire’s true motorsport legends. A multiple-time world and national champion in BriSCA F1 Stock Car Racing, Frankie has dominated the dirt ovals for decades, earning the nickname "The Shale Shifter."
With a career built on skill, resilience, and a deep understanding of his machines, Frankie shares his journey, the evolution of stock car racing, and what it takes to stay at the top in this high-speed, full-contact motorsport.
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Transcript
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Speaker A: -: Speaker A:I'm sat in the kitchen of a man who probably one of Yorkshire's true legends.
Speaker A:He's smiling at me is this young gentleman.
Speaker A:He's multiple world champion, multiple national champion.
Speaker A:He's also known as the Shale Shifter.
Speaker A:He's the one, the Only, Frankie Wayman Jr.
Speaker A:One of the world's greatest stock car drivers.
Speaker A:Frankie, welcome to the Backseat Driver.
Speaker B:Good afternoon.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker A:I'll ask you the question I asked most people like this.
Speaker A:I know your father did it.
Speaker A:How did you get into we.
Speaker A:I conclude you were just born into this.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely, just born into it.
Speaker B:Did my first, went to my first me when I was 10 days old.
Speaker B:I think since I was born and yeah, never missed many since.
Speaker B:So obviously it's just in your blood.
Speaker A:So it was a case of.
Speaker A:Yeah, in many ways you had to.
Speaker B:Do it and have to do it.
Speaker B:Obviously.
Speaker B:When I was at high school, I was a very good footballer.
Speaker B:I got picked to play for Yorkshire.
Speaker B:So I had the choice then.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Whether I actually played football or race stock cars.
Speaker B:And unfortunately for me, I picked stock cars, which, you know, in hindsight I might have been better playing football because I could have been, I could have been good.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But obviously, you know, I love the stock cars.
Speaker B:I loved everybody to do with the stock cars and I was quite good at it.
Speaker B:So I just.
Speaker A:Yeah, So I mean, it's like we said, you dad did it.
Speaker A:I mean you're known as a 515, aren't you?
Speaker A:Was you dubbed 212?
Speaker B:Yeah, when I was 2 and 2.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So how much influence did your dad have?
Speaker A:Because over the years I've spoken to a lot of successful racing drivers, children who've gone into motor racing and at times it's a bit mixed emotions.
Speaker A:They want to do it and they want to do well, but they feel pressured to live up to their father.
Speaker A:Is it something you felt as well?
Speaker B:No, not at all.
Speaker B:Obviously, you know, we'd had a really successful career in the stock cars.
Speaker B:Very low budget career.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which is very similar to my own.
Speaker B:But obviously, you know, I just wanted to be on your man.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I set about racing and obviously I've never looked back since, you know, I just wanted to.
Speaker B:As soon as I got in a stock car, I just wanted to do the best I could and win every race I went in.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's how I approached every, every race, you know, I crash or win.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's how, that's how it started, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:But the, the effort was there, yet you had to put maximum effort in.
Speaker B:Which is probably why I gained such a, a large fan base because people wanted to see me win.
Speaker B:You know, I take on the top boy straight away.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, no, no holds bad because.
Speaker A:You started with Mini stocks, didn't you?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker A:Memory service Mini stocks literally was.
Speaker A:They were like a stock car with a Mini shell, the original Mini shell.
Speaker B:The very first Minis when I raced were literally a Mini off the road.
Speaker B:You bolted bars to the outside of them.
Speaker B:A pro roll cage.
Speaker B:I'm gonna race them.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which they still race me stocks these days.
Speaker B:But now they're just a total space frame car with Mini subframes.
Speaker B:And yeah, you're very, very similar to look at but a totally different animal.
Speaker B:Proper racing cars.
Speaker B:Yeah, but yeah, that's, that's what I raced them for six years.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I mean Yorkshire seemed at times, seems to be the epicenter of stock cars.
Speaker A:It's a very popular sport in Yorkshire.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It is all over really when you get to talk to people, but obviously, you know, we've had a lot of, a lot of good drivers in Yorkshire and obviously in Lancashire as well.
Speaker B:John Lunds from Lancashire, you know, he's a world champion over there multiple times.
Speaker B:Yeah, obviously, you know we've quite a good percentage of the drivers are up north who win a lot of the stuff.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is there any reason for that?
Speaker B:We're just better drivers, I suppose.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:It's just, just how it is really, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, don't take this wrong Way stock cars.
Speaker A:I mean I can remember going to see them at Blackburn.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And Bellevue.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And I will describe it as I said, this is not an insult, but it's what you might call the working man's motorsport.
Speaker B:Exactly what it was.
Speaker B:That's exactly what.
Speaker B:Well, still is really.
Speaker B:But obviously there's just that much money involved with it now.
Speaker B:You know, you're talking a lot of money now to.
Speaker B:To buy a new car, if you like.
Speaker B:Obviously we, we race with a lot less budget but our cars are as good.
Speaker B:Yeah, we just worked for years and years and years to.
Speaker B:To get them there.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So you built your first proper stock car, didn't you?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker C:Yeah, yep.
Speaker A:So with guidance from your dad.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, obviously I've been building my Mini stocks and then I built my dad's last few cars before I started racing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:With him.
Speaker B:So obviously it was just a progression, just to get on and build my own and you know, when my lads at work for me dad at the time and then obviously I haven't looked back since.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now an F1 stock car, I mean most people know what a Formula one car is, but what is a Formula one stock car?
Speaker A:So I'll be quite honest, I know very little about them and to me visually a lot of them look the same.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're a purpose built car.
Speaker B:They're very similar.
Speaker B:The regulations are very strict on everything, so it keeps everything right for everybody.
Speaker B:And so obviously they're space frame, cab, high tensile steel built from scratch.
Speaker B:Purpose built.
Speaker B:650700 brake horsepower, Chevy engines from America.
Speaker A:Yeah, obviously that's the one thing I always remember.
Speaker A:They were nearly all Chevy.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Back, back when we dad racing, obviously there were big blocks which are obviously the same sort of power.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Just not the, the quick characteristics you get with a small block.
Speaker B:But everybody seems to go with small blocks now because they shut down and pick up a little bit faster.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:A bit more money for.
Speaker B:To buy them out.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Obviously because a big block you get natural power.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:On quite a standard big block.
Speaker B:Whereas a Chevy, you need to work them quite a bit to get that amount of power out of them, which is where the money is now.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And the, I mean the chassis just better not be in front.
Speaker A:It's quite a basic chassis in itself.
Speaker B:Yeah, it has to be because of the contact we have.
Speaker B:You know, it's big contact and obviously you need a robust chassis.
Speaker B:It's got to be.
Speaker B:Yeah, you can't build flimsy with light things.
Speaker B:They just don't last two minutes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So obviously you, you get back to basically every.
Speaker B:There's a lot of car builders in stock cars and all the chassis are very similar.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because they have to be, they have to withstand that wall.
Speaker A:And I conclude like all multisport, there's regulations as to what, what they have to be.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:On everything.
Speaker B:Weights in inside weight, rear weight.
Speaker B:Minimums.
Speaker B:Maximums.
Speaker B:Total weight.
Speaker B:Yeah, minimum.
Speaker B:Maximum.
Speaker B:Again.
Speaker B:So, you know, everything's restricted and, and we're.
Speaker B:And so idea.
Speaker A:And the roll cage is it, it's not really a standard roll cage.
Speaker A:It's like something around the driver.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:It's purpose built.
Speaker B:You know, it's, it's a high construction steel which again they call it a roll cage.
Speaker B:It's not actually a roll cage.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's an impact protection system for the driver is what it is.
Speaker B:Because obviously when that car's upside down and a field of 25 cars is racing pass you and they hit it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's got to withstand that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, it's not a roll cage.
Speaker B:The roll cage is just for when you roll over.
Speaker B:That's a very simple thing.
Speaker B:But obviously ours is a high impact structure to protect the driver.
Speaker A:So I mean, I conclude it's a strange thing.
Speaker A:You're building a car to be robust.
Speaker A:Robust to withstand being hit and also robust enough to hit others.
Speaker A:It's a strange thing.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That, that, that's part of.
Speaker B:A lot of people don't actually get the, the complexity of what you're building because that's a stock car.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it's got to be fast and it's got to withstand the wall.
Speaker B:You get put in the wall, you've got to come back out the wall without it collapsing and.
Speaker B:Yeah, things like that.
Speaker B:And obviously like I could have said that rolling over and you've got to withstand that.
Speaker B:Being hit upside down.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, to protect your driver.
Speaker B:You know, everything is all evolved around where you, you're building these cars.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's, it's an unusual concept when you compare it to the racing car.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because obviously your normal racing formula, if there's an accident and a car rolls over, then that's a.
Speaker B:You need a roll cage.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But not one of them cars is then going to run into that car.
Speaker B:Obviously we're still racing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so in that incident it could happen.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so you could have other cars hitting you at full race pace because you've just rolled over.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you know, not on purpose, obviously they'll.
Speaker B:But if, if it's a racing incident and they don't know where you are.
Speaker A:Or where you land, if memory says.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What is the average length of a stock car circuit?
Speaker B:The quarter mile ovals, that's what we race on.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Obviously we have different size, different sort of.
Speaker B:How to pronounce it.
Speaker B:But obviously wider corners, narrower corners, longer straights.
Speaker B:Yeah, Short straights, you know, they're all a little bit different.
Speaker B:So your gearing's different.
Speaker A:So it's a little bit like what you might call nascar, the American version of it.
Speaker A:But they are all ultimately still the same thing, aren't they?
Speaker A:Different lengths?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Although our stock cars don't bear a lot of resemblance to their stock.
Speaker B:Not at all, no.
Speaker A:Never fancied that.
Speaker B:No, not really.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:No, no contact.
Speaker A:Now, when you started, I mean, what did it take to start to become the world champion?
Speaker A:Because I conclude you have to.
Speaker A:Besides building the car, you've to learn to drive.
Speaker A:What is the technique of driving one of these?
Speaker A:Because I mean, everybody, it's, it's a little bit like what I call the scale electric syndrome.
Speaker A:You can tell somebody who's never had to do a scale electric, another corner slot, pull the trigger and fly off at the first corner.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Anybody can get in a stock car.
Speaker B:I do experience days at skest for, for people who could just want to go in and have a go.
Speaker B:All right, so to drive them on a track, it's.
Speaker B:It is different to a normal road car, but it's not a lot different.
Speaker B:You drive around the track.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker B:You break, you accelerate, you steer.
Speaker A:How many gears have you got?
Speaker A:You've only just.
Speaker A:Is it two?
Speaker B:Two first and then you're into race gear.
Speaker B:You don't change gear when you're racing.
Speaker B:You stop in one gear.
Speaker B:All right, so there's no changing gear, nothing.
Speaker A:So first is just to get it rolling.
Speaker B:Absolutely rolling.
Speaker B:Start into second, you're racing, but obviously when you're then racing, you've got to do the quickest laps you can.
Speaker B:And then on top of that, you've got people trying to hit you out the way, or you've got to hit people out of the way.
Speaker B:That's when it gets complicated.
Speaker B:Cuz obviously.
Speaker A:Or not be funny.
Speaker A:Or the degrees of aggression as well.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:You hitting that, that's all right.
Speaker A:But then you hit him second time, that's not all right.
Speaker B:Obviously when you pass, when you're catching the cars to pass them, you basically Tap them wide to pass them.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:We should always like uncle going for the inside.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And ultimately that then leaves that car there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:For the competitors that are chasing you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:They've got to then move that car.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So if you, if you fence that car.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You've done the job for the car behind you as well.
Speaker B:You don't have to do anything.
Speaker B:Does he.
Speaker B:He's already passed it because it's in the right.
Speaker B:So you've got to be a little bit careful with it and a little bit clever with it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And again, obviously, if you're racing with people, I mean, obviously the top lads championship race will be battering each other into fence lap after lap.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:To win the race.
Speaker B:But obviously in a normal race when the, the, the top driver starts at the back, that's.
Speaker B:I start at the back every race I do.
Speaker A:Because that's the unusual thing.
Speaker A:The better you are, the further back you.
Speaker B:That's correct.
Speaker B:So every race I've done in my whole career, I start at the back of 30 cars.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So I've got to pass all 30m cars every race.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you get used to it fairly quick, passing cars and the faster you can get through them cars, the more races you win.
Speaker A:So it's a little bit like, I mean, my hero for a long time latter day was Michael Schumacher.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And if he had to start at the back of the grid, it was a pleasure to watch.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He was good in traffic.
Speaker A:Carve his way through.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Well, that's what we're like every race.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then obviously your front cars, then as they gain experience and win races, they start coming backwards and then they start with us further back.
Speaker B:So obviously, you know, you watch Grand Prix these days and Verstappen bosses, his lap times and starts on front, doesn't pass a car and that we've never, it's like.
Speaker B:Yeah, that happened.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:What did he actually do?
Speaker A:Technically, nothing.
Speaker A:He drove a car around a circuit 69 times faster than it.
Speaker B:So we have to pass cars.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's what makes our racing such a spectator sport because anything can happen.
Speaker B:Anything can happen, you know, and obviously on the day you always get some of your lower graders that are as fast as us.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you struggle to get to them.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So they then win the rest.
Speaker B:Did you see what I mean?
Speaker B:So, yeah, you know, you're always going to get that.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Because I conclude even the most inexperienced driver is still driving a car that in theory is as good as yours.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Especially these days.
Speaker B:I mean, when we first started, obviously the.
Speaker B:The top.
Speaker B:The top cars were different.
Speaker B:When I first started racing, there was like probably three or four that were a lot better than everybody else's.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it was like that for years.
Speaker B:But now.
Speaker A:Don't mind me asking, what made them better?
Speaker B:Probably the engine money.
Speaker B:Time.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:The time drivers putting on them.
Speaker B:But nowadays I go to a meeting now and there's 30 cars in a race and no word of light, all 30 of them could win that race.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because they are all on pace.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's what's made it hard.
Speaker B:Really hard.
Speaker B:Especially starting at the back now.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And that's how it is now.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:It's what you.
Speaker A:It's pure driver in many ways.
Speaker A:It's driver's skill that gets you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:To the front.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What can you do that makes that can make your car better?
Speaker A:Or is there not?
Speaker A:Or is it.
Speaker A:Do the regs not allow it?
Speaker B:Nothing is there just.
Speaker B:It's just right tire choice, right tire pressures, stuff that obviously on time, I tracks the same every lap.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker A:So now, I always thought you were on Gravelly Shield, but you do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You would do time.
Speaker B:I can't because that'll be a whole different technique.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And obviously time at your track stops the same the whole time.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, Shale, they always put a little bit of water down.
Speaker B:So you've got to dial your car in to be either quick at the start, the rest when it's wet, or quick when it dries out.
Speaker B:It all plays into it.
Speaker B:And what you do, obviously, depends how long the race is.
Speaker B:A world final could be 25, 30 laps.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So for the first few laps, you might struggle a little bit, but then your car's dialed in for when it dries out.
Speaker B:But obviously it's all what you want to do and when you want to do it in the race, really.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And you mentioned tires.
Speaker A:I mean, when I used to watch stock cars, the tires that were on the cars were.
Speaker A:It's a bit like end of life.
Speaker A:Nobody really thought about tires.
Speaker B:It's a massive thing now.
Speaker B:Massive.
Speaker B:Obviously we.
Speaker B:A right rears and a.
Speaker B:Or three corners is an American racer.
Speaker B:Rally tire racing tire from America.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Purpose built for us.
Speaker B:And then obviously the left rear.
Speaker B:On Shale, we run a rally tire, which you can run any compound.
Speaker B:A rally tire.
Speaker B:And again, that's driver choice.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you run a softer tire to be quick at the start of the race.
Speaker B:You run a harder tire to be quick at the end of the race.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's where your differentiators come in.
Speaker B:So like if I start at the back with say Tom Harris who's world champion, another top driver.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:He might run a softer tire than me on the left re and be gone at the start.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But then as my harder tire comes to halfway through then I'd catch him back up and then we'd have a race at the end.
Speaker B:It's just how each driver wants to play the race really.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So do you tend to use one make of tire or on different makes of tires?
Speaker B:Obviously like I said, the tarmac and the three corners on Shirley outside are all American racer tires.
Speaker B:That's fixed.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:The Raleigh tire left rear on shell.
Speaker B:We can run any com, any compound, any make.
Speaker B:So we can run Pirelli's D Max.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Michelins.
Speaker B:And again each driver chooses what he wants to rest.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And what's.
Speaker A:Are you all on the same size wheels?
Speaker A:Can you or so you can't vary the wheel size?
Speaker B:Yeah, you can.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We can run anything from sort of 8 inch wide to 14 inch wide.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But each driver just suits what he wants to run.
Speaker B:What stagger.
Speaker B:He wants to run a difference on the back tires.
Speaker B:So you'd run them on a 14 inch room if you wanted less stagger, 12 inch if you want a little bit more on the right rear.
Speaker B:Just things like that really just tweaks and how driver a lot of drivers drive different.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like if somebody jumped in my car they probably it push on from there wouldn't be a driver because I like a lot of push in a car.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So I don't.
Speaker B:I try and run as little stagger as I can.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Blah blah.
Speaker B:And that's just how I like it.
Speaker B:But obviously for another driver they'd want to run more stagger.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I dare say lap time wise you could get them very similar.
Speaker B:It's just where the driver drives.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And do you find a difference between no insult.
Speaker A:You're, you're, you're like me a little bit older.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Do you find difference between your method and your thinking and the young driver's method and thinking as the style of driving stock cars changed?
Speaker B:No, not really.
Speaker B:It hasn't.
Speaker B:Because it's a full contact sport and because the way we start, obviously the fast lies at the back.
Speaker B:It, it can't really change.
Speaker B:It's what it is.
Speaker B:You know you have to get on and do do the business as soon as a green flag drops and you know you don't get A lap where you can relax.
Speaker B:There's no.
Speaker B:I'll just take it steady for this lap cuz you.
Speaker A:So it's hot out.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You've like a heat, you've 16 laps full on.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And if you back off for a minute, you know, if you have a bit of a mess about or whatever.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Your competitors have gone, you won't catch them again, you know.
Speaker B:So it is like I suppose years ago when I.
Speaker B:You think about it, the racing was probably a bit easier back then because you could make mistakes and get away with it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now you make a mistake, you've lost 10 places.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you don't make a back up.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You, you know, you, you're ten places down.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, it's that simple.
Speaker A:And you were talking about the accidents.
Speaker A:Unless you end up on your roof and you're stuck there and if the car gets back on its wheels, I conclude the car.
Speaker A:So you can start them up and go again.
Speaker B:Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker B:You would get put in the fence, you start up and restart again and get going again and.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Cuz obviously we have race cautions within the races if like if there's an incident or somebody's hurt or somebody's winded or whatever.
Speaker B:So they then line up in single file so you can be virtually a lap down and then you can be back.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:With the.
Speaker B:Virtually with the leaders again.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so all races are never finished till they're finished.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I conclude that from what I remember seeing, even somebody like Frankie Weimer, you'll still do your own spannering and things like that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You have to do obviously because I was, you know, we're fixing cars, setting cars up.
Speaker B:You know, I've done that all my life.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's what I've sort I'd done and that's why I built so many cars and obviously it's helped me as a driver because I know what, what to do to, to make the car right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's probably why I've had such a good career really.
Speaker B:You know, a lot of drivers who are coming in now, you, they don't really know what to tell you because they, they can just drive.
Speaker B:They don't know anything about the cars and so you're kind of trying to make it up for them sort of thing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you know, I've driven cars that you know, just don't go around the track and you've had to make them go around and then you come Back in and alter things and.
Speaker B:And get them going.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Besides your own cars, do you look after any other cars?
Speaker B:Yeah, quite a few.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So yeah.
Speaker A:So is it like the Wayman team?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, we have a full team.
Speaker B:Obviously my son and my daughter race, my son in law races, my brother races, you know.
Speaker B:So we've got plenty of cars here and obviously I think I've got sort of 12 or 14 cars up here.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:We do the experience days where anybody can jump in these cars.
Speaker B:They become very popular.
Speaker A:I conclude that they're drink.
Speaker A:Somebody wants to experience.
Speaker A:Is it a lesser car?
Speaker A:Is it a detuned car?
Speaker B:No, it's.
Speaker B:They're exactly the same.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:They're just like our older cars if you like, you know.
Speaker A:So you don't make it any easier.
Speaker B:No, not at all.
Speaker B:The only thing I do with them for the experience days, I do put a little bit more stagger on them so that they turn in the corners.
Speaker A:So what is that just like a.
Speaker B:Different back tire size?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So right rear to left rear, we're on a total lock diff.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So there's no limited slips or anything like that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So obviously you put two tires on the same sides, them cars won't turn left.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker B:So your difference on your rear sight, tire sizes, circumference is how easy it goes around the corner.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker B:So obviously for a novice driver.
Speaker B:Yeah, we always try to put a little bit more stagger on for them.
Speaker B:So it just makes the corner easier for them.
Speaker B:Yeah, simple as that.
Speaker B:It's only simple mathematics and obviously.
Speaker B:But then they get less drive coming off the corner.
Speaker B:But while they're learning and getting used to the cars then that that gets them going.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And I conclude as well, when you say from the sounds of it, you drive these cars a lot on the throttles.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So there'll be opposite.
Speaker A:Is it a little bit like speedway where you can get the car slightly sideways and.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:You'll spend a lot of the time with opposite lock on going around.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:On shelf 100% not on time.
Speaker B:You do that on time at.
Speaker B:You don't go anywhere.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But obviously on shale.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's exactly what you do.
Speaker B:Which is why I try and run as little stagger as I can.
Speaker B:I turn the car on the brake.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then just keep it on the throttle.
Speaker B:Cuz you've got like 600 horsepower plus.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You've got plenty of power to.
Speaker B:To work the car.
Speaker B:You make the car down to the throttle and.
Speaker B:And Drive it with that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:As sucks as you became more and more successful, I conclude you would feel the pressure start to mend, wouldn't you?
Speaker A:You, because everybody who wants to become a champion, I don't know any decent racing driver who doesn't set out and want to be a champion or good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But as they get better and they start winning a lot more.
Speaker A:Not being funny, you become targets in many ways.
Speaker A:And given stock car driving's contact sport, do you find as you've gone through your career, have you felt the pressure or have you felt you've become a bigger target for others?
Speaker B:Yeah, you're obviously a target because, you know, for a lot of years, a lot of my career, I've been the man to beat at every meeting we go to.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you do get pressure with.
Speaker B:Obviously on track.
Speaker B:It's no issue to me.
Speaker B:It just means racing harder.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, you get your young kids coming in, want to have a dabble and, you know, put you in the wall and you put them in the wall and then you push them in the wall.
Speaker B:You know, you're aching for a few weeks, but, you know, you keep going.
Speaker B:And obviously, I suppose it's like, I suppose it's like a.
Speaker B:A lion pride.
Speaker B:I suppose.
Speaker B:Obviously if you, if you rolled over and played dead, then you, you'd never win again, would you?
Speaker B:So you just got to keep fighting.
Speaker A:And whether it's a young drive.
Speaker A:Well, I conclude with the young drivers, you'll have to learn about the older drivers.
Speaker A:You get to know how each driver drives.
Speaker B:Yep, absolutely.
Speaker A:And you get to know the ones you can trust.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You get to know where their strong points are, where their weak points are.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I conclude dry, bracing a stock car on what is actually a small circuit in a.
Speaker A:An unusual car compared to otherwise.
Speaker A:You are still, you'll still know where to pick drivers off.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Obviously.
Speaker B:Like when you, when you're lapping cars, when you, you know, some races, we start with 36 guys on the track.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You're constantly lapping cars.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And obviously the more experienced drivers that are better in traffic, like myself, I can get through traffic really good.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:I've been able because I've raced with cars all my life.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you, you know, some.
Speaker B:For example, a young kid starts top car, spends as much money as he likes.
Speaker B:He's racing, he's winning a race.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You're not going to catch him because he's as quick as your own lap times.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But then he gets to traffic and that split Second, when he's dealing with that car and he don't deal with it fast enough.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You've got to him is when you've caught him.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:And, and that you can't buy that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You only gain that with experience and obviously wisdom of time.
Speaker B:I was lucky enough to, to learn like my trade early.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:When there was a lot of cars on track, you know, lots of cars.
Speaker B:And back sort of in the 80s, cars wandering around everywhere.
Speaker B:They, you know, I mean nowadays, like I said, they're all proper things.
Speaker B:But back then, you know, some of the, you know, some of the used to wander around.
Speaker B:They didn't know where they were going or anything.
Speaker B:So when you're lapping them, you, you've got your wits about you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so I think that's kind of one of the things that has put me in good stead for everything I've done.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, with the sounds of it, I mean I would.
Speaker A:Does somebody tell you, is there something on the dash as such?
Speaker A:How do you know how many laps you've done?
Speaker B:You don't.
Speaker A:So you just go around till you see a checkered flag.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Obviously the starter.
Speaker B:We have a start.
Speaker B:Marshall.
Speaker B:Who will indicate sort of who's winning the race.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You come past, you kind of know where you are through experience.
Speaker B:You know which cars are leading with your leading.
Speaker B:Blah.
Speaker A:And then obviously you tend to find there's you and say a couple of others that you tend to be together.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:That's how it's always been all my career really.
Speaker B:And at different times, different people.
Speaker B:You know, obviously as people come and go and get to the top, then you race with them week in, week out.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And battle with them.
Speaker B:And then obviously as, as the races go along, we count the laps down from five, the lap.
Speaker B:But we have lap boards.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Charlie, there's five laps left.
Speaker A:So you're counting down.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're counting down from five to the check of flags.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Do you also get a board telling you where you are?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker B:No, we've never had anything like that.
Speaker B:We don't get anything like that at all.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's, it's personally knowing that I'm sure he's in front or I'm sure I'm in front of him.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:And, and, and, and part of what I've learned over the years, obviously when you, when you, you have to kind of clock where drivers crash and how long they crash for.
Speaker B:Cuz as you come back round.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they're set off.
Speaker B:You kind of got to know they're a lap down.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Because you're not battling with them, are you, anymore?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:So if he wants to come past.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Let him pass because he's still got all the way around to go.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:That's all right.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And you're not, you're not racing him anymore, are you?
Speaker B:Because he's in a.
Speaker B:He's a lap down.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you kind of got to know that.
Speaker B:And then obviously, as you're lapping him, as well as he knows he's a lap down.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:He would not tend to battle with you because he knows you're winning as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:He's quite.
Speaker B:Quite a complex thing.
Speaker B:People don't think about things like that.
Speaker B:But it does make a difference when you.
Speaker B:When you're reading a race.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And the other thing is, we've covered this with Ian when I interviewed in the stock car Photography, man.
Speaker A:It's all the roof colors.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:How does all that work?
Speaker A:Cuz was your color when you were the best of the best?
Speaker A:Were you gold?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:World champions Gold.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Obviously we start with the white tops.
Speaker B:Then there's.
Speaker B:We have five different grades.
Speaker B:You got white, yellow, blue, red.
Speaker B:And then superstar or flashing lights on their red roof with flashing lights.
Speaker B:Oh, they're the.
Speaker B:The sort of top six in the country.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's been like that since mid-80s, I think, or early 80s, maybe.
Speaker B:I can't remember when.
Speaker B:Flash.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So we've got kind of five grades.
Speaker B:So we start in a handicap system like I said.
Speaker B:So I've started virtually every race in my career at the back of.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Whoever's on the track.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's just 35 cars on there and I'll be like 35th.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then it's obviously.
Speaker B:And then as.
Speaker B:As the drivers score points in the races, they then proceed up.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Grades.
Speaker B:And then.
Speaker A:So if you do well, not before, if you do well in the first race, do you get position back?
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker B:No, it doesn't alter per meter.
Speaker B:It alters per month.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So you'll do two or three meetings in that month.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Your points are accumulated and then you move grade to whatever grade.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You move up to.
Speaker B:You might go to yellow or to blue.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then you start further back.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So and the start.
Speaker A:When you get to a meeting, do you have to qualify.
Speaker A:Do you have to qualify to sort the grid out?
Speaker A:Do you know where you're going to be to start with?
Speaker A:Allow our meetings Give them a given where you start all the time.
Speaker A:You don't need to do.
Speaker B:No, but obviously in our meet, our meetings have always run the same for.
Speaker B:Ever since we started racing, we.
Speaker B:We run heats.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you'd have either two or three, depending how many cars are there.
Speaker B:You'd have two or three heats and out of them heats, then the top eight in each heat qualify for the final.
Speaker B:Then you have a consolation for everybody who hasn't qualified.
Speaker B:So your final, you have.
Speaker B:You like your top 36 cars or whatever.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker B:And then that again starts in great order.
Speaker B:So you're always at the back.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:It's one of them things.
Speaker A:It sounds a bit strange because I probably like for a lot of people, you understand racing as you see it.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Working out grids and stock cars basically work the entire different way around.
Speaker B:Yeah, they say.
Speaker B:Yeah, they do.
Speaker B:Obviously our World Championship again, we run qualifying rounds for that throughout the season.
Speaker B:Then we have two semi final races.
Speaker B:Whatever position you get in your semi final is where you start in the World Final.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So you, you do start on pull.
Speaker B:You do start at the front.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker B:And the grids backwards.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Obviously you know that it's the World Championship.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:It doesn't always mean to set.
Speaker B:That the front person's going to win it.
Speaker B:It's been won off the back before.
Speaker B:So, you know, it doesn't.
Speaker B:It doesn't.
Speaker B:Doesn't mean anything.
Speaker B:It just makes it a.
Speaker B:A lot bigger race and a lot bigger event.
Speaker B:A lot, you know, a lot of.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Stuff goes into it and I conclude like all drivers, no matter how experienced they are, etcetera, when you're driving in the World Cup Final, does Frankie wave and feel the pressure?
Speaker A:Have you got beyond that?
Speaker B:I've got beyond it a bit now.
Speaker B:World Championships one less.
Speaker B:They've always been one race.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I've always had.
Speaker B:Because I've had a lot of battles every year I've raised.
Speaker B:I've always been battling with Sunday proper.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I've always worked with the best throughout the year.
Speaker A:Because it's never been a given when you get to that.
Speaker C:No, yeah.
Speaker B:At all.
Speaker B:So obviously I've probably only won three World Championships because I've always been battling too much with other drivers.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Prior to that.
Speaker B:Through the season or so obviously at that meeting.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Either I put him in the fence or he puts me in the fence.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's how it's always been through my career.
Speaker B:You know, I kind of accepted that.
Speaker B:Obviously I won the national points.
Speaker B:14 times a summit, which is a season long points.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, which is kind of what I wanted to.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's like formal Grand Prix all season, top point score, all that.
Speaker B:And obviously I'd done that for year after year after year and that was what I was.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:More happy with winning I think, to be honest.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The World Championship.
Speaker B:So one race thing, flat tire out.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:So you know, your whole year can be gone in one.
Speaker B:One whole flat tire.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that to me wasn't like.
Speaker A:It's a bit unfair really.
Speaker B:It's a map.
Speaker B:But on the other side, when you win it, it's the best feeling in the world.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I've won three now.
Speaker B:I'm still going to win a few more before I retire for sure.
Speaker B:Obviously I've won three world championships in England, I've won three in New Zealand and four in Holland.
Speaker B:So you know, I've won plenty of world championships.
Speaker B:But they are just a one race thing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But yeah.
Speaker A:Are you finding now that with your children doing it, are you racing less or else are you still carrying on or.
Speaker B:I'm doing more, I think.
Speaker B:So the kids are enjoying what they're doing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I've done probably every meeting my whole career since I started racing.
Speaker B:I've done meeting after meeting after me.
Speaker B:If I'm not there, everyone wants to know why.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And because I enjoy it.
Speaker B:That's why I'm there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I'm gonna carry on doing that.
Speaker B:I'm still enjoying it now.
Speaker B:I've done two meetings this year, won three races already.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, I'm still loving every part of it.
Speaker B:I love going to the meetings.
Speaker B:I love being with my family.
Speaker B:I love every part of it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I'm gonna carry on doing that.
Speaker B:You know, I ache a bit more on a Monday morning, but I don't care, you know, I mean I, I've, I'm still, yeah.
Speaker B:Entertaining the people.
Speaker B:I've entertained all my career.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And have you raced against your kids?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh yeah, plenty.
Speaker A:What's it, what's it like?
Speaker A:Do you cut them any slacker?
Speaker A:Do they, do they cut.
Speaker B:Dude, he's like, no, neither.
Speaker B:Yeah, I do, to be honest.
Speaker B:A little bit.
Speaker B:I, it because it's a full contact sport.
Speaker B:It's different because.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you can't treat them different because the kids say with my son in law yet and my brother, you can't.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because the minute you let up some little nip in and yeah.
Speaker B:So you, you have got to treat them a bit like A normal car, if you like, which is hard for me.
Speaker B:And it is.
Speaker A:Does it cause arguments after this?
Speaker B:No, not at all.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:You know that Christmas Day lunch can be entertained.
Speaker B:A really weird one.
Speaker B:European Championship a few years ago.
Speaker B:My son in law was awarded it on the day and it all got a bit messed up on the lap score and they didn't get it right and they had to sort it the day after and they took it off him and I ended up winning it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that was a weird one at the dinner table because obviously we've lost about the European Championship through my son in law.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But then I ended up winning it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:It was one of them.
Speaker B:And that actual race was Phoebe got second and Frankie got third.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which has never, ever happened in the history of stock car race.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The same family as I've topped three in a major championship.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it was a massive moment.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But luckily Carl, I mean, straight away he said that he'd been out in the race when they said to him he'd won it and he said, straight away, I went out.
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B:So he knew he'd been out and he did tell him that it was nothing to do with him trying to claim it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And he accepted it absolutely brilliantly.
Speaker B:He really did.
Speaker B:So it was good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, Frankie Wayman, thanks so much for joining me on the Backseat driver radio show.
Speaker A:And it's genuinely a family affair.
Speaker A:It's a case of which Wayman's the world champion now.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'll take any of them, to be honest.
Speaker A:But once again, Frankie Wayman, multiple world champion, brisker, stock car, everything else.
Speaker A:Thanks so much for joining me on the Backseat Driver.
Speaker B:Super.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
