Navigating Rally History with Legendary Co-Driver Ian Grindrod
In this episode of The Backseat Driver Podcast, I sit down with Ian Grindrod, one of the most respected co-drivers in rallying history. Ian takes us through his incredible journey, from his humble beginnings navigating 12-car rallies—despite struggling with travel sickness—to becoming the trusted co-driver of legends like Jimmy McRae. He shares firsthand what it takes to succeed in rallying, from mastering navigation to building unshakable trust with a driver at high speed.
We dive into the golden era of rallying, reliving stories from some of the sport’s most thrilling events. Ian reflects on the evolution of rally cars, the shift from marathon endurance rallies to today’s shorter events, and why modern TV coverage is missing the mark. If you’re a motorsport fan, you won’t want to miss this conversation—it’s a fascinating look at the raw, unfiltered world of rallying from someone who lived it.
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Transcript
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Speaker B:Yes, it's me, Mike Stone, and this is the Backseat Driver podcast.
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Speaker B: -: Speaker C:I'm set with somebody today who, shall we say, is legendary in the world of rallying.
Speaker C:One of the most, probably most famous CO drivers to just read out an abbreviated list of the people he sat alongside.
Speaker C:Trevor Roberts, Peter Thompson, Cyril Bolton, Marco Serristo, John Hoagland, Seymour Lampinen, Tony Pond, Alan Carter, Jimmy McRae, Henry Toivanen, Roger Clark, Malcolm Wilson, Dave Metcalfe, Alistair McRae, David Llewellyn and Gavin Sheen.
Speaker C:It's impressive to say the least, but so is the Mount's history.
Speaker C:So I'd love to welcome to the backseat driver, Ian Grenrod.
Speaker C:Ian, welcome.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker C:How did all this start?
Speaker C:What made you want to get in a CO driver's seat?
Speaker A:I was actually talked into it.
Speaker A:I started serving me apprenticeship at Mullards in Blackburn.
Speaker A: Home of the: Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:So it was a factory motor club and I joined it particularly to get Jeep oil and headlight bulbs and stuff like that.
Speaker C:What were you running at the time?
Speaker A:A Vauxhall Viva.
Speaker A:Ha.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker A: I joined the motor club, the: Speaker A:And then a fellow member of the club who was an apprentice with me, Ian, fine with, asked me if I would navigate for him on a 12 car rally.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:Had you done this before?
Speaker A:No, not at all, no.
Speaker A:So we did a bit of practice in driving around the lanes, me trying to rig and that.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then we did a 12 car rally, which I was a bit worried about in the respect that I've always suffered from travel sickness.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:So we did just put it in.
Speaker C:It's one of those Things I've tried cool driving and I can't get along with looking down.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker C:I have to look out.
Speaker C:Windscreen.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, absolutely.
Speaker A:Anyway, we did this 12 car earlier and I was violently ill.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But nevertheless, I persevered and we finished that and then I did two or three more and gradually, well, I thought to myself, well, I can do this, I can read these maps.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, you know, I continued and eventually moved into doing all night road rallies and everything just moved on from there.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:But when you mention not being able to look down all the time, I can't look down all the time now.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker A:I couldn't do.
Speaker A:I couldn't do a plot and bash event.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where your head's down all the time.
Speaker A:I'd be ill.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And people say, how can you read a map?
Speaker A:Or how can you read personals?
Speaker A:But your eyes are going up and down all the time.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I completely pace notice.
Speaker C:It's like just sliding your thumb down and whatever.
Speaker C:So you know when you're.
Speaker A:You know where you are.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But you're.
Speaker A:You're constantly looking at the notes and looking, you know, quickly through the screen.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, I mean, from there, how did.
Speaker C:Shall we say you move on to.
Speaker C:Well, more or less it.
Speaker C:Doing it as a profession, because you would have had to start somewhere, somebody would have noticed your abilities.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:That started from.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:Excuse me.
Speaker A:I was friendly with Cyril Bottleton.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Through me navigating for Trevor Roberts.
Speaker A:We're all in the Mini Sport Paddingham.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Rally team.
Speaker A: or News rally championship in: Speaker C:Because, I mean, not just putting in the Motoring News.
Speaker C:Launched a lot of Cubby.
Speaker A:Oh, it did, yeah.
Speaker A:Most like Tony Pond and Russell Brooks and so on all started in that.
Speaker A:So in 76, Cyril was second.
Speaker A:And British Leyland has obviously been monitoring this because it's one of their products, even though it wasn't their car.
Speaker A:And as a bit of a thank you to Cyril, they wanted a Mini out on the British Open Rally Championship.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, stages like the Scottish and the.
Speaker A:And so on.
Speaker A: So they gave him a: Speaker A:A track car.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:Cyril converted that to a rally car.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:That'll be the clubman, won't it?
Speaker A:It was a clubman.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A:And that was a British layer.
Speaker C:And got fed up paying John Cooper royalties on the names, probably.
Speaker C:And they called them.
Speaker C:They called them gts.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:They give him his Car, he converted it and all the navigators that had been with him on the road rallies, the likes of Paul White, for example, in Nigel Rabin and so on, they didn't want to go into the stages.
Speaker C:Was you a bit quick?
Speaker A:No, it wasn't that.
Speaker A:I think because it was a Group 1 car, basically a standard car.
Speaker A:I think they felt like they'd be belittling themselves to go in that.
Speaker C:All right car weren't good car weren't posh enough.
Speaker A:No, it wasn't posh enough, no.
Speaker A:And obviously with it being standard, it wasn't going to be quick, you know, in the great scheme of things.
Speaker A:So I think I was probably 12th choice.
Speaker A: ritish Autumn Championship in: Speaker A:And then I got a phone call was a just November time, end of October 77, from John Davenport, the team manager of British Leyland.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Asking me if I would be interested in core driving from ar still on the rac.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker A:Which is what.
Speaker A:What I did.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:What was that in?
Speaker A:That was in a 16 valve TI7.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:The white ones.
Speaker A:So I did that and then the following year was with Cyril again.
Speaker A:And then at the end of that year 78, I got another phone call from John Davenport.
Speaker A:Would I be interested in car driving for John Hogland?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:In a TR7 V8 then.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Well, they're notoriously not good on special stages apart from Tarmac.
Speaker C:And notoriously fast.
Speaker A:Yeah, notoriously fast.
Speaker A:Great on tarmac, not so good on gravel.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:But there you go.
Speaker A:But John, John was a brilliant guy and he'd obviously driven factory Skodas up to then.
Speaker A:He'd never driven anything more powerful than a factory Skoda and he'd never driven a right hand drive rally car.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Because back then it had been Skodas with rear engines and small engines.
Speaker A:Small engines, yeah, that's right.
Speaker A:So we finished 12th.
Speaker A:I thought that was a really good result.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was a lovely guy to co drive for.
Speaker A:And then what happened after that?
Speaker A:So that was 78.
Speaker A:Ah, right.
Speaker A:So during the course of those two RAC rallies I got to know people like Tony Pond and at the end of 78 Tony left British Lane and went to Talbot to drive the Sunbeam Lotus and asked if I co drive for him.
Speaker A:But Des O'Dell, the team manager, had never heard of me, so he wouldn't let Tony take Me as car driver.
Speaker A:So he had a succession of car drivers for basically the first three quarters of the year.
Speaker A:79.
Speaker A:And there were a lot of mistakes being made and so on.
Speaker A:Eventually, at the end, toward the end of 79, September, des or Dell relented and let, Let, let Tony tried to tag me.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I did the MAX Rally, San Remo and RAC with him.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:And did a far better job than them that went before it.
Speaker A:Well, that's not for me to say, but.
Speaker A:Well, San Remo particular.
Speaker A:Well, Manx, we were leading the Manx and the oil pump broke.
Speaker A:That was us out.
Speaker A:But San Remo, we finished fourth against.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, I've never done.
Speaker C:The San Remo, but I have driven the stages of the San Remo.
Speaker C:They are tarmac and they are spectacular.
Speaker A:Well, in those days it was.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:The first leg was tarmac in the mountains behind San Remo and then we made our way on tarmac stages towards Pisa.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then there was a big service where all the suspension was changed to gravel.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:There was a load of stages on gravel between Pisa all the way across Tuscany and Umbria to San.
Speaker A:Where did it all.
Speaker A:Where was San Marino?
Speaker D:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Was where the overnight hole was.
Speaker A:Then coming back from there, another load of gravel stages from through Umbria and Tuscany going the other way.
Speaker A:And then another big suspension change and then tarmac stages back towards San Remo.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then another.
Speaker A:An overnight halt.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, an overnight ultimate.
Speaker A:Most of the next day.
Speaker A:And then the last leg was the following night in the dark of the tarmac stages at the back of San Remo.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was a really long rally.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think it was 76 stages stroll.
Speaker C:Manny, having said that, the other.
Speaker C:You won't be able to really pay attention.
Speaker C:We'd have been in some very nice scenery, very nice countries.
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker A:You could see all that when you did the recce.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're wrecking for best part.
Speaker A:Three weeks.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you see it all then, you.
Speaker C:Know, and of course there's the lure of the food and the wine and everything else.
Speaker A:Yeah, wearing it.
Speaker A:Yes, that's.
Speaker A:That's another story.
Speaker A:I mean that then I thought spaghetti came out of the yellow and red tin behind written on the 15.
Speaker C:And if you brought the right one, you could spell words.
Speaker C:We eat.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A:But yeah, but yeah, I love Italian food now and I love Italy just.
Speaker C:As a bit aside.
Speaker C:I mean, when I was last there, I was actually on holiday.
Speaker C:I dined in the restaurant frequented by Gillespie all Right.
Speaker C:And you went in.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker C:He didn't hold it or anything, but he might as well adult.
Speaker C:The walls were just solid with pictures of him driving rally cars.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And after you dined there, you understood why.
Speaker C:Why he liked it.
Speaker C:That's fantastic place.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So, I mean, you then Seymour Lampernan.
Speaker A:That was a Welsh rally.
Speaker A:Did we see more?
Speaker A:And only because his regular car driver at the time was Fred Gallagher.
Speaker D:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:And Fred was.
Speaker A:I think he'd done a.
Speaker A:I think it was an Ulster rally or something with.
Speaker A:In a checkered flag TI7.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they had an accident in Ireland and Fred hurt himself.
Speaker A:I can't remember whether he broke his leg or something like that.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So he couldn't do his Welsh rally with Seymour.
Speaker A:That's why I finished up with Seymour.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:So what was it like?
Speaker A:Well, Seymour.
Speaker A:Seymour's a really nice bloke.
Speaker A:He was a hell of a rally driver in his time, of course, but he'd suffered from polio as a child.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So he couldn't walk very far and had a very pronounced limp.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And he used to use, like, tennis balls to weave in his hand, to strengthen his hands and his arms.
Speaker A:And on that particular Welsh rally, I think we probably set a record there where we punctured the spare wheel that was still in the boot that came about at the end of the end of a.
Speaker A:A stage in Duffy.
Speaker A:And we'd come to the end of the stage and there was a bit of a problem going on with the clocks and whatever it was.
Speaker A:And there was a collection of cars there.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we stopped in the queue and Seymour.
Speaker A:I was just about to get out the car.
Speaker A:I was halfway out the car and see Seymour.
Speaker A:We could hear this next car coming full chat, which was Henry Ton in an Escort.
Speaker A:And he must not have seen where the flying finish was or anything.
Speaker A:And came hurtling down the road.
Speaker C:You're still flying.
Speaker A:Still flying.
Speaker A:And went straight in the back of the tr.
Speaker A:Yeah, with me just about to get out of it.
Speaker A:Seymour leant across, grabbed the collar of me overalls and pulled me back in.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:When he hit the tr, we went straight past.
Speaker A:Roger Clark was parked just slightly in front of us.
Speaker A:Yeah, Right.
Speaker A:We went straight past him.
Speaker A:It was quite.
Speaker A:Quite an impact.
Speaker C:I know you shouldn't really laugh, but it's full of them.
Speaker C:Thick as well.
Speaker A:And it shook the back of the TR in that far.
Speaker A:It punctured the spare wheel.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:We were able to carry on.
Speaker A:Oh, we carried on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah, we carried on.
Speaker C:Because, I mean, like you with Tony pond, I mean, Mr.
Speaker C:Pond was known for being quite fast behind the wheel.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Was he all right?
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And of course, you mentioned the one, the only, Henry Toivonen.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Now, I know somebody else who once went out the.
Speaker C:Whilst he was driving for the Opal team.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:He went out with me, was one of the mechanics and he went out with Toyvenen and he said.
Speaker C:But he said, it is an experience you'll never forget.
Speaker C:He said, it's probably an experience you'll never relive.
Speaker C:He said he was staggeringly fast.
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:He was staggeringly fast.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And he would.
Speaker A:Undoubtedly, obviously it would have won the world championship a number of times.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:But if.
Speaker A:If it, you know, survived that terrible accident in Corsica.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I mean, before we come back to something, I mean, it's like car control, I dare say, having sat in the co driver's seat, you'll very quickly be able to work out whether they can drive or not.
Speaker A:You can tell within a mile.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you're sat next to somebody who's trying to drive fast.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:You can tell within a mile, probably in less than a mile, whether they can drive or they can't drive.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I've been with people who were really quick on road rallies, but invariably can't drive more than a mile before they crash.
Speaker A:You know, I've seen that loads of times.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:But, yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker A:You can tell straight away.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I'd said somebody had one asked me who the fastest drivers had been with.
Speaker A:Well, Henry's one of those, without a shadow of a doubt.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then even, even, I mean, what.
Speaker C:Inspired, when you're with them, that they drive so fast, what inspires you, not being funny, to stay in the car with them?
Speaker A:Because it doesn't feel dangerous.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker A:If suddenly, I mean, as a Cord Riders point of view, if you sat in a car you felt dangerous, you'd stop rallying.
Speaker A:You couldn't carry on if you thought it was dangerous.
Speaker A:And I've sat in with people.
Speaker A:Dave Metcalf's a prime example.
Speaker A:In that Nova, people have said just wasn't in.
Speaker C:Dave Metcalf made a Nova do things nobody thought he could.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And people have said, looking from the outside, it looked like an accident, looking for somewhere to happen inside.
Speaker A:It didn't feel that at all, which is very odd, innit?
Speaker A:It felt all under control to me.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:Then, of course, I would say your most famous partnership was Jimmy McRae.
Speaker C:I mean, that lasted quite a long while, didn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:How did that come about?
Speaker A:Well, Jim.
Speaker A: iving Vauxhalls for DTV up to: Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So when Jim moved to Opal, Mike really felt he had to stay with Vauxhall, obviously.
Speaker A:So Jim had to look for somebody.
Speaker C:I mean, technically, they're what you might call the same thing.
Speaker C:Opel and Vauxhall.
Speaker A:They are.
Speaker A:They were running in 81 when I first went with Jim.
Speaker A:They were run as two separate entities.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So there was dealer Opal team and dealer team Vauxhall.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:But then after that became GM Dealersport, it was all under the same umbrella.
Speaker C:Because about then you get the.
Speaker C:You'd have the esconers and the Mantas and for the Vauxhall it'd be the Chevettes.
Speaker A:The Chevettes, yeah.
Speaker A:We had the escarner in 81, 82 in the beginning of 83 and then Mantas after that.
Speaker A:The Manta made its debut on the Welsh in 83.
Speaker A:Well, it made its debut on two different rallies, the Welsh in 83 and the same weekend, the Tour de Course.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, I mean, it carried on with Jimmy McRae.
Speaker C:I mean, I conclude you developed a good partnership together.
Speaker A:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker A:I mean, 81, 82, 83, as with Jim.
Speaker A:84.
Speaker A:I was with Henry in the Porsche.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And my Cord.
Speaker A:Rough.
Speaker A:Mike Nicholson Cordraw for Jim in 84.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then 85, I went back with Jim.
Speaker A:85, 86, 87.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah.
Speaker A:And then I've done the occasional small type of historic event with Jim.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Seen, you know, very.
Speaker C:Because you've also called roll for Alistair, haven't you?
Speaker A:And Colin.
Speaker C:And Colin.
Speaker C:I mean, I interviewed Malcolm Wilson a few months ago and he was saying.
Speaker C:He said there was Nobody like Colin McRae saying, contrary to what you might have seen when you watched him drive, he said the man's mechanical abilities and knowledge were incredible.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:They were.
Speaker A:I only did one rally with Colin, which was in.
Speaker A:I think he was 17 at the time.
Speaker D:Yep.
Speaker A:In his Sunbeam Ti.
Speaker A:And it was Jim, Jimmy that said, would I sit with.
Speaker A:Come in and see if he's any good?
Speaker A:So I said, okay, then.
Speaker A:So we did the Snowman rally and that certainly lived up to his name because it was.
Speaker A:There was a lot of snow burst up in Inverness, because after.
Speaker C:At times you watched Colin McRaean, at times he reminded you a little bit of Vatanen that he'd get to the end and probably win in staggering fashion or he'd park it up a tree or a dry stone wall somewhere yeah.
Speaker A:Well I mean they got a lot of criticism at the time did Colin but of course everybody just used to point the finger at Harry and say well hang on a minute remember what Harry used to be like?
Speaker A:Yeah and look what he did so.
Speaker C:And I suppose we Colin and Alistair having Jimmy as Jimmy McRae as a father there is to a degree there's.
Speaker C:They've got to live up to me don't they?
Speaker A:I think it's a difficult thing as.
Speaker C:Well yeah because like Damon Ellen Graham Hill Damon had to live up to.
Speaker A:His dad yeah and you get the scenario now with young Max McRae Alistair's son he has to live up to his father his uncle yeah and his grandfather so that's triple bad or triple difficult I should say but when I got in the car with colin so his 17 year old that gets in the car at the start of the snowman I said to him right I said don't try and impress me I said I've been impressed by so many great drivers better drivers than you will ever be But Bart came back to bite me but yeah, yeah I mean Colin was at that age I'd been with Henry then yeah Then at that age if I'd have shut my eyes sat next to Colin I'd have thought I was sat next to Henry yeah because he just had people say what is it that makes them like that?
Speaker A:It's different to any other drivers the three fastest people have all been the same if you sat next to them and that was Henry, Colin and Dave Metcalfe yeah they're the three fastest I.
Speaker C:Would have said I would say personally speaking it's, it's like when you're not be funny when you watch Jackie Stewart drive it's an inane sense of balance and feel because if you watch Jackie Stewart drive and one show the others they don't physically look to put a knot of effort in no they're not throttling the car strangling their hands are on the wheel and moving about very quickly but there's no.
Speaker C:They're not white knuckling no no I.
Speaker A:Mean one of my favorite in going to a race sort of scenario the the one incar film I saw once that really impressed me it was Jim Clark on the old Nurburgring Yep and I mean it just looked like we're out for a Sunday drive and I mean don't forget there were no Safety barriers, Nothing.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Which was the regrettable demise of a lot of them because when they came off, there was an oak tree waiting.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, that's right.
Speaker A:But I mean, you see rallying, you haven't got.
Speaker A:You haven't got arm go barriers and forest size.
Speaker A:I mean, I remember in Australia, the trees are massive on the right at the side of the road.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:It's a bit of a daunting prospect.
Speaker C:It's like they say, it's not the crash that kills, it's.
Speaker C:Or injures, it's the sudden halt.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, and that's.
Speaker A:That's come.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That's absolutely the case.
Speaker A:I mean, Michael Park's a good, good example of that on the RAC.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, it's like, you know, 80 miles per hour to nothing in no distance.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:When you hit a tree site in.
Speaker C:About a second, as such.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:I absolutely.
Speaker C:Have you ever had to tell a driver, no matter how good they are, just slow down a little bit, will you?
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker C:I suppose it's a peculiar thing on a rally because if you slow down, you're going to be slower.
Speaker C:But it's a.
Speaker C:It's the case of like, just be careful here.
Speaker A:Well.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, you can say that.
Speaker A:I don't think I've ever said anyone to tell anybody to slow down.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:You usually.
Speaker A:You're in a scenario if you're lucky enough to have a lead on a rally and.
Speaker A:And you feel like you've got a decent lead.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:It'd be silly to chuck it away.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then something happens where you think, well, you just.
Speaker A:Just cool it a bit.
Speaker A:But you're looking after your lead, of course.
Speaker D:Yep.
Speaker A:But I always felt, for example, Jim.
Speaker A:Jim McRae was a past master at tactical driving.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:He knew how slow to go.
Speaker A:That's the difference.
Speaker C:I mean, I once said that.
Speaker C:Somebody once asked me about me.
Speaker C:I said I used to drive percentages.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I said if you worked out, you weren't going to catch the block up front and the guy behind you wasn't going to catch you knock about 500 RPM off.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Be a bit kinder to the car.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because you see.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, that's.
Speaker A:That's another one you see with Jim was real, really good kind to the car and you had to be.
Speaker A:I mean, these modern ones now, they weren't always talking about the likes of San Remoy, the rs.
Speaker A:He's in those days with these modern cars, wouldn't be able to cope with it because you had to look after the car.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:As well as try and set decent times.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm not being fully.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:The rallies were longer.
Speaker A:Oh, they were much longer.
Speaker C:I mean, no disrespect to them.
Speaker C:I still now refer to it.
Speaker C:They reckon they're going to get a European Rally Championship event back.
Speaker C:But I still call it the Rally of a little bit of South Wales.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Compared to what was the Lombard rac, which was what, four or five days and covered the entire country.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know, that's right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We were looking somewhere.
Speaker A:Some discussion came up the other day and I was looking at Coresica in 81, the route.
Speaker A:And I did that with Tawny Pond.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And there was.
Speaker A:I think there was 50 odd stages and five of them were over 80 kilometers long.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And in the Datsun, we had to have a pit stop in the middle of those stages for tires and petrol.
Speaker C:Because the other thing was with the course, with the Corsican Rally, the number of corners.
Speaker C:I can also remember an interview with Brian Kulcheth, the late, great Kulchuth, and he said.
Speaker C:He said, there's a six kilometer stage, he said.
Speaker C:And up to press, he said, I think I changed gear at least 500 times.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I've never done a rally with as many pace notebooks in my life because.
Speaker A:Because, you know, you.
Speaker A:You imagine a stage of 80 kilometers long, you've got.
Speaker A:You've used half a pace notebook up.
Speaker D:Yep.
Speaker A:And it's mostly the case of saying.
Speaker C:To a driver, can you stop a minute?
Speaker C:I'll eat next book.
Speaker A:It's so many coinies.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Unreal.
Speaker C:I mean, I've never been.
Speaker C:It's one of my ambitions to go to Corsica and maybe take part in the story.
Speaker C:Is it?
Speaker C:It really is as hard as they say it is.
Speaker A:It is, yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is hard.
Speaker C:Well, I conclude when you finish it, there's a sense of achievement.
Speaker A:There certainly was that year in 81, because Tony and I were in a Datsun GT, which is like a little taxi.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we were on Dunlop Crossplay slicks.
Speaker A:Everybody else is on Mitchell in Radiosby.
Speaker A:Then all the.
Speaker A:All the opposition were in.
Speaker A:Well, Estratos one.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And a Porsche was second, I think.
Speaker A:And Fricklin was in the Lotus Zombie.
Speaker A:He could have been sent, but that's the sort of car you're up against.
Speaker A:And we were in this Datsun and we finished third.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I mean, nobody expected that, that result, but that was down to Tony.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He was so conscientious.
Speaker A:Wrecking and getting everything right on your pace notes and stuff.
Speaker A:And yeah, it came to fruition that that's what really got us the third place.
Speaker C:I mean, I once saw, and I can't remember it was a French driver.
Speaker C:I don't know whether Jean Claude, Andre Fre or whoever.
Speaker C:Until the last day.
Speaker C:It had been hot, dry and sunny and he was driving a Renault 5 Maxi Turbo, rear wheel drive, rear engine or mid engine.
Speaker C:And the Quattros of the other big four befores couldn't touch him.
Speaker C:And it rained on the last day and the benefit of four before took over and I think a Quattro won.
Speaker C:But it was proof that until then, in the right conditions, such like as the Quattros were maybe not quite as good as everybody thought they were.
Speaker A:No, I'm not saying they were a.
Speaker C:Bad car because when you look at such as Michel Mouton, people like that, I mean they made them dance.
Speaker A:I think when they first arrived on the scene, nobody could hold a candle to a long gravel.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:But they did suffer on tarmac with transmission problems.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I think it was a strain.
Speaker C:Because there was no, Tarmac doesn't allow the wheels to spin as much.
Speaker A:No, I think, I mean that's, that's the, the problem they had initially anyway.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But like you say, if the roads are dry on tarmac and that most people could, could or you know, could be up there with them.
Speaker A:Yeah, but it was a bit demoralizing on gravel.
Speaker A:I mean, I remember sitting in the car with Jim at the start of a sturgeon and he was in the Quattro in front of us.
Speaker A:Or a stick.
Speaker A:Yeah, one of the two.
Speaker A:There's a long straight up a hill on the, in this forest from the start line.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we timed it from him setting off to going out, out of view at the first corner at the top of this hill.
Speaker A:It's quite a long way.
Speaker A:And then we timed us, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:He was four seconds quicker.
Speaker A:And that was like the first, first 300 yards because we like set off and wheels would be spinning on the style line.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that was demoralizing.
Speaker A:And a Scottish rally.
Speaker A:Hanu broke a steering on the first stage in Strathclyde park and they had to reverse out the stage.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And lost a lot of time.
Speaker A:And Jim and I were leading all the rally and Andrew was catching and catching and catching.
Speaker A:And we worked out it passes three stages from the end, as he did just by, just by the fact that it had got superior grip on Grand.
Speaker C:I mean, another driver you with.
Speaker C:With is the legendary Roger Clark.
Speaker C:Were you with him for.
Speaker A:No, I only went with Roger on one rally, which was the rase in 84.
Speaker A:But I also did a course car with him on the Mount Rally in Eg Fuller.
Speaker A:But to do the RAC was brilliant.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:I mean, you sit next to a guy that was your hero that you read about all the time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Reading about him in.
Speaker A:When he was in the Cossack Escort, before that, even for men's hairspray.
Speaker C:Did he still make it?
Speaker A:No, I don't need it.
Speaker C:I'm gonna say neither of us need.
Speaker A:It, but, yeah, I mean, to sit next to Roger on that was just wonderful.
Speaker D:Yeah, it was.
Speaker A:What a great bloke he was.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker C:Honestly, of all the rallies you've done, of which there have been a considerable number, which was the favourite of such.
Speaker C:Which did you look forward to going back to?
Speaker A:Well, worldwide, I would have said Australia or New Zealand.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:I just loved both of those countries.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And in this country, if I was given the chance to do.
Speaker A:To wind the clock back, I'd love to do a proper circuit of Ireland again.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where it is a circuit of island.
Speaker A:Not all the way around, not a.
Speaker C:Little bit of it.
Speaker A:Yeah, they were.
Speaker A:There were tremendous events, though.
Speaker A:Yeah, they were.
Speaker A:But, you know, to win.
Speaker A:To win a circuit.
Speaker A:Jim won the circuit five times.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:I was fortunate enough to be with him for three of those.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:But they were really, really tough events.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Really tough.
Speaker A:Circuit of Ireland in those days was equivalent to any world championship rally at the time for difficulty.
Speaker A:And it was a real achievement if you could win that.
Speaker C:And although you were only the passenger in them as such.
Speaker C:Which cars did you enjoy them all?
Speaker A:6I4.
Speaker C:6I4.
Speaker C:I've been a passenger in one and I must confess, I wasn't exactly upset when I got back out.
Speaker A:Well, we only had the 6R4 one year, of course, before Group B was banned.
Speaker A:So Jim and I were in the Ruffman 6i4.
Speaker A:And the fact of it wasn't the quickest or the most successful Group B car at the time, because you had the Peugeot T16 and the Lancia Delta S4.
Speaker A:But nevertheless, it was a Group B car and it sounded well and it.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:I loved it.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:The first time I went in, it was a test before the Mintex Rally, or whatever you called it then.
Speaker A:National Breakdown.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was a test at Gaydon.
Speaker A:I couldn't believe Jim.
Speaker A:Jim hit the brakes.
Speaker A:I couldn't believe how good the brakes were.
Speaker A:I thought we went.
Speaker A:It was in the darkness test as well.
Speaker A:We went over this crest and I thought there's a T junction, we're not going to make it.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Just hit the brakes and turned in and off it went.
Speaker A:It was tremendous.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker C:I've spoken to people who have owned them and rallied them and the one thing I experienced from the co driver seat is the speed at which they change direction.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker C:In fact they seem to change direction quicker than the human brain couldn't.
Speaker C:Could do it.
Speaker A:Well, of course nowadays with modern WIC cars, everything's moved on so much that they're probably not as powerful as Greg B.
Speaker A:Guys.
Speaker A:But they're faster.
Speaker D:Yes.
Speaker A:The brakes are better, even the suspension's much better.
Speaker A:Now that all makes a big difference.
Speaker A:And they change direction with a blink of an eye.
Speaker C:Unlike the late great Colin McRae, they seem to spend most of their time Airbo.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're losing time when you've got all four wheelers off the floor.
Speaker C:I mean, what's your opinion of modern rally?
Speaker C:Cuz the reason I ask is if you look at the TV coverage of it, there's only about five cars taking part, which is a shame cuz none of the lesser categories or they're not up and coming drivers don't get the coverage.
Speaker A:There's two parts of that question what I think about modern rallies.
Speaker A:Well, the drivers can certainly drive.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:We're talking about the top end now.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:You can't deny they can only do what's put in front of them.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:So for people to say, oh, it's easy for him.
Speaker A:It's, you know, folks said, well, Sebastian Lauber won the world championship so many times.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:When you compare that to Hanu Mikola Bjorn involving all that.
Speaker A:The rallies were much longer then.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the technology was different and the technology was different.
Speaker A:But that is not to detract from modern day drivers because they still have to drive.
Speaker A:The rally's put in front of them however long it is and they have to drive that rally and they're fast, they're fast drivers so that you know, they're as good as anybody.
Speaker A:The other side of the question is the coverage.
Speaker A:TV coverage.
Speaker A:I sometimes put the World Championship rally on the telly.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Invariably I switch it off halfway through.
Speaker A:But you can't cope with it because the production of it is rubbish.
Speaker A:I don't want to see a car coming into the stop line and somebody interviewing the driver at the stop line.
Speaker A:Not what I want to see.
Speaker A:No, I want to see in stuff on the stages.
Speaker A:There is some of that but not enough.
Speaker A:And then when there is in stuff, there's a.
Speaker A:A guy commentating if I sh.
Speaker A:Name and he can't stop talking.
Speaker A:So when.
Speaker A:When you're trying to listen to the co driver reading the notes, which is what I want to hear.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:He's talking over it.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, all these people need to go and look at the films of the 80s and 90s that Barry Inchcliffe made.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's how to make a rally film.
Speaker A:That's how to film rallies.
Speaker A:Not.
Speaker A:Not this.
Speaker A:It's rubbish, this.
Speaker C:No disrespect, I'll probably get dragged over the course with it.
Speaker C:But there's a female presenter as well who could probably do better presenting a different topic.
Speaker A:Well, I'm not going to comment on that, but I mean, there are some.
Speaker C:Excellent women presenters out there who know this stuff.
Speaker C:Regrettably, rallying seems to attract them that don't.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And if you look back in time, when Barry Inscliffe, for example, did the TV coverage, they used to have a professional front in the program, the likes of which was David vine or Steam Rider.
Speaker A:Neither of them had any experience of rallying, but they were given a script that was written by a rally journalist.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And when they came on and talked about stuff, it would appear that they knew everything about it.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they weren't cynical, they weren't sarcastic about drivers.
Speaker A:This guy that commentates now, you'd think he were a world championship rally driver.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:He's so cynical about its stuff.
Speaker C:And it's probably only nearest he's got to it.
Speaker C:He's actually standing next to one.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:It's just poor.
Speaker A:And the other thing is that they're wondering why people don't watch.
Speaker A:Well, all right, so it's on what used to be BT Sport.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:TNT Sport now.
Speaker A:So anybody with a skybox watching TNT Sport, you can put a record record this series.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:But you can't be the rallying because one night it's on TNT1, the next night is on TNT2, and next night it's on TNT3.
Speaker A:Why does it keep it on same channel?
Speaker A:Yeah, it's poor.
Speaker A:And I mean, whoever's in charge of all that production.
Speaker A:Well, I'm sorry that they should be fired off.
Speaker A:It doesn't.
Speaker A:You don't have to be Einstein to work out, but it's better off it's on one channel.
Speaker C:Yeah, very true.
Speaker C:Do you do much now?
Speaker C:Is there Anything you do that you do nice little quiet navigation.
Speaker C:Rallies don't evolve speed.
Speaker A:No, I don't.
Speaker A:The last proper event I did was at Knockhill last July with Alistair, which was a.
Speaker A:A McRae Stages event.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:With invited drivers there, as well as, you know, all the club guys from Scotland.
Speaker A:It was a right good day.
Speaker A:And I did it with Alistair in a iron die WIC back in the day when Alistair drove one on the World Championship.
Speaker A:And we did that and retired.
Speaker A:We retired on the last stage, about 200 meters from the flame finish.
Speaker A:So we're getting out the car and it was on a slight uphill.
Speaker A:It was actually on the pit straight going the wrong way at no wheel.
Speaker A:And somebody at the side of this road at the side of the stage spectating said, are you not going to push it?
Speaker A:I said, get a grip.
Speaker A:I said, I'm 72.
Speaker A:Well, I could push in it for like.
Speaker A:The only thing I regret was I said to Alistair, actually, I said, that's the last time I'll ever sit in a proper rally car.
Speaker A:In a proper rally.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker A:You get to the.
Speaker A:I haven't done anything for a while before that.
Speaker A:But I only did that because Alistair and between Alistair and Jim, they wanted me to go to this event and to do it realista that I should have.
Speaker A:What I should have done, given the fact that it stopped where it did stop at the end of the last.
Speaker A:Just at the end of the last stage.
Speaker A:I should have done what Lewis Moyer did on the RAC and got out and throw me grass back with you.
Speaker A:I really regret not doing that.
Speaker C:Ian Grinrod, it's been a pleasure chatting to you.
Speaker C:Thank you very much for joining me on the Backseat Rider radio show.
Speaker A:You're very welcome.
Speaker D:It.
