The Dynamics of Co-Driving with Molly Livermore
It’s me, Mark Stone, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I speak with Molly Livermore, a rising star in the world of rallying and one of a growing number of women making their mark in motorsport.
Molly shares how her passion for rallying was shaped by her father’s legacy as a rally driver and her early immersion in motorsport events. From marshalling at a young age to taking the co-driver’s seat in competitive rallies, she talks about her determination to develop her craft and the lessons learned along the way.
I explore with Molly the complex and highly skilled role of a co-driver, from precision communication and teamwork to the split-second decision-making that defines success on the stages. As she looks ahead to her ambitions within the sport, it’s clear that Molly embodies a new generation of competitors bringing fresh energy, talent, and representation to rallying’s future.
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Transcript
I'd like to introduce the Backseat Driver radio Show, a young lady which once again is my tangible proof when they keep going on about we need more women in motorsport.
Speaker A:Well, after Emily Platt and of course, Jess from Avic Motorsport, we have another young lady which, as I said, is proof that there are women in motorsport.
Speaker A:So I wish those and the powers that be would shut up about it all.
Speaker A:But that brings us nicely back to Molly Livermore.
Speaker A:Molly, welcome to the Backseat Driver.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:You are, shall we say, an up and coming co driver, aren't you?
Speaker B:Yeah, I'm really enjoying it.
Speaker B:Over the past few years, I've done quite a lot.
Speaker A:Well, it's a family trait, is this, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:I mean, you'd no option given your dad, have you?
Speaker B:No, I feel like, especially being an only child, it was definitely a path of mine also.
Speaker A:You had no option.
Speaker A:There wasn't a brother to be a direct.
Speaker B:No, no, opt.
Speaker A:And of course you are a fellow member of the Mor club.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:How did all this come about?
Speaker A:Oh, you just said it's your only child, so you no option.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I grew up with it my whole life.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I obviously, my dad is a rally driver.
Speaker B:He mainly does a lot of stage rallying, but started doing targas with me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I went to my first rally when I was about nine weeks old, so I was very, very straight out and straight into rallyian.
Speaker B:But because my dad is very involved with Morton Car Club, I was going to a lot of events, doing a lot of marshalling with my parents.
Speaker A:Which brings us neatly on for those like you, doesn't it?
Speaker B:It does, it does.
Speaker B:My parents were marshalling at the start, setting cars off and I said, I want to set them off.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Obviously it was a night rally, so it was very, very late at night and I was really into Toy Story at that point.
Speaker B:I was probably about four or five and I decided to bring my buzz light here.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And obviously when you've got quite a lot of young rally drivers, they were really interested in it.
Speaker B:I was like, oh, I need to see this, need to see this.
Speaker B:And they were thanking me for marshalling as well as setting them off.
Speaker B:But obviously being four or five years old, I was getting very tired by the end of it.
Speaker B:Kind of swaying a bit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But, yeah, I've literally always grown up with it.
Speaker B:There was a rally that we were marshalling on and the farmers had to lock the gate.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because what happened was the Malcolm Car Club got permission and everything for the obviously Cars to use the roads and everything.
Speaker B:But the farmer just decided to lock the gate and was like no, can't do it.
Speaker B:Obviously causing massive disruption to the rally.
Speaker B:So my parents had to find a way to turn the cars around again.
Speaker B:I was probably about four.
Speaker B:I was the only one with a high vis jacket.
Speaker B:So they decided to be full length.
Speaker A:At 4 years old.
Speaker A:Won't it?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It was very very big on me.
Speaker B:Kind of more like a dress.
Speaker B:But there was like an island in the middle of the road near where the cars would have gone up down the farmers little paths kind of that they go down.
Speaker B:So they decided to put me on this island with my high vis jacket on and I'm pointing so the cars will slow down obviously when they see me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Realize it's four year old.
Speaker B:But they knew what to do.
Speaker B:They need to turn around.
Speaker B:And then my parents were then directing of what the new route was.
Speaker B:So yeah very grew up with rallying.
Speaker B:It was kind of all I knew realistically because my dad obviously owns his own garage.
Speaker B:He's a mechanic.
Speaker B:So I've always grown up with cars.
Speaker B:But it was really good.
Speaker A:Supposedly the only little girl who read Motoring News.
Speaker B:Can't say I read it.
Speaker B:Can't say I read it.
Speaker B:But surrounded by it you'll see all my dad's mates and everything.
Speaker B:All into rallying, all into cars.
Speaker B:So it was everything I knew.
Speaker B:So it was kind of obvious that I went in to the path that I went down.
Speaker B:Learning to drive when I was young it was kind of definitely where I was heading.
Speaker A:Now the one thing you're doing and it's.
Speaker A:It's the classic story of a lot of the top rally drivers from the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Speaker A:They all started out navigating and coal driving and it's something you're doing.
Speaker A:So how did you start with the co driving and navigating and who taught you?
Speaker B:So I started off by sitting in on the Morgan Car Club auto tests.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Obviously on auto tests they're very simple.
Speaker B:All about kind of quickly getting around the core.
Speaker B:The goings simple.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker B:It's more like at the start you're giving a little diagram.
Speaker B:So real school.
Speaker B:There's no need for a navigator.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:However I just started sitting in with them to kind of get the feel of what it was like.
Speaker B:I learned to drive when I was 4 14.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B: my dad's friends Dave in his: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I did about an hour or so in that.
Speaker B:Learning how to do the Handbrake turns around the cones and I did one of the auto tests.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I did actually kind of start driving on the auto test.
Speaker B:Not specifically.
Speaker A:Now, the beauty of auto tests is they're on private land, so you don't have to pass the driving test, do you?
Speaker B:I mean, at 14 years old, I definitely wouldn't have got away with when I got away doing it on the actual roads.
Speaker B:But, yeah, no, that's how I started.
Speaker B:But then from that, one of our, like, close family friends, Christian, said to me is like, do you fancy navigating?
Speaker B:Because I'd sit.
Speaker B:I'd sit in with him on the auto test and obviously I didn't actually do anything.
Speaker B:It was more getting the feel of it.
Speaker B:So from there he asked me if I wanted to try out more of like a local, simple and not too confusing navigating, which was the Workington rally tests.
Speaker A:And that was like, I've tried navigating and I am terrible.
Speaker A:If you want to get lost, put me in the co driver's seat because I promise you, you will.
Speaker B:I mean, like you said earlier, like, every.
Speaker B:Well, can't say every, but the majority of drivers do start off co driving because it is important to understand what's going on and how to listen and communicate with your co driver.
Speaker B:And if you've actually been in the co driving seat.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's always good to get a feel of it.
Speaker B:Like, for example, Michelle Meon, obviously massive female valley driver, she started off co driving.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it does go to show that it is always important.
Speaker A:No respect to you dad, John.
Speaker A:Daddy was a seriously wealthy man and after she said, I think I can do a better job at driving, he went out and bought her an Original Alpine, A110.
Speaker A:I don't know whether that's likely to be on the course for you.
Speaker B:Probably not.
Speaker B:Probably not, but.
Speaker B:But, yeah.
Speaker B:So we did the worker to Raleigh tests.
Speaker B:It was kind of like a mobike speedway track.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you'd start on that, you'd go around, there's some cones that you had to kind of chicane in and out of and then you'd go off the track and into like an open bit of land.
Speaker B:Obviously, the, the maps were quite simple.
Speaker B:Wasn't too difficult because there was quite long stretches.
Speaker B:It was definitely more of a like all about speed.
Speaker B:Wasn't really about technical, like going in and out of cones at that point.
Speaker B:So I did find that really good to kind of ease me in to co driving.
Speaker A:The second thing, they'll have to get used to is the speed.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because what you're doing is you're not doing anything, shall we say different to normal driving in many ways.
Speaker A:You're just doing it a lot quicker.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:I think that it's all about timing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's all about knowing how your driver wants the communication.
Speaker B:Because you know the driver's not going to go nowhere to go if they don't understand what you're trying to tell them.
Speaker B:And to be a good co driver you need to tell them the information.
Speaker B:Like where to go.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In enough time that it's not too early, but then it's not too late.
Speaker B:If they're coming up to the cone, they should already know what they're doing.
Speaker B:You should be telling them as they're reaching that cone.
Speaker A:Somebody once told me it's like a corner in advancing menu.
Speaker A:I know more.
Speaker A:A lot of drivers.
Speaker A:That's why the relationship between driver and co driver has to develop because every driver likes his information.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Differently.
Speaker B:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:But I once got told it's about a corner in advance.
Speaker A:If I'm going around a left hander, I need to know in my brain that I've about a 200 yards straight after that and I'm into a right hander.
Speaker B:It's all about the feeling of it because I don't have a specific rule of okay, I'm this many yards away.
Speaker B:That's when I tell them it's more about the feeling of okay, I'm here, but they need to know here.
Speaker B:So it's all about just kind of doing it and keeping on doing it.
Speaker B:Knowing the communication that your driver likes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:To be able to communicate well.
Speaker B:Because.
Speaker B:Well, I've known Christian since I was a baby and I've grown up with him.
Speaker B:So I know him really well.
Speaker B:And we did discuss about what he likes when navigating, like how he wants cones to be called out.
Speaker B:Hairpin turns left or right hand side of the cone.
Speaker B:It's all important to know what they like.
Speaker B:Otherwise you're not going to get anywhere with it.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:And everyone's different.
Speaker B:Like you said, some people prefer saying you want the cone on your left hand side of the car or you physically want to be on the left or right and in what degree.
Speaker B:It's all different.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But yeah.
Speaker B:So with the first Workington rally tests we came third overall in it.
Speaker B:But first rear wheel drive.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So what were you in?
Speaker B:We were in a 2 liter sunbeam.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was a good car.
Speaker B:That was 14.
Speaker B:That's going back six years.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And because we've done a lot in the Subaru recently, I can't fully remember the feeling of it, but it was, it was a very fast car.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it was really good.
Speaker B:But that was a definitely a good, good series of targas.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't know if I'd caught a Targa, but it's a value test to kind of ease me into the co driving.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:And then I kind of got the bug for it after that because I was like, oh, I really want to keep doing it.
Speaker B:But after that we did a very, very different type of Targa because it was a lot more technical.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:A lot more cones, which was the northern dales.
Speaker B:And you kind of look out onto it when you're on the start line and all you can see is cones.
Speaker B:They even ran out of letters, so they went onto numbers.
Speaker B:It was like you're going down the letters and all of a sudden you're going left of two and it's, there's a lot of cones.
Speaker B:It was a big step up.
Speaker B:But I was confident because I knew how to say everything.
Speaker B:I knew how Christian wanted everything to be called out.
Speaker B:So I did feel confident.
Speaker B:And after the first one, it's like, okay, I know what I'm doing now.
Speaker A:I mean, just wondering, do you use like this modern terminology?
Speaker A:K, left, right, right through.
Speaker A:I mean, it means absolutely nothing to me.
Speaker A:I get to turn left to you.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So with the, with the Targa test, you don't use the one to seven scale.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because that's more of like when you're on the roads, 12 cars or stage rallying because you don't have a long enough stretch really to warrant that because it's like cone after cone after cone.
Speaker B:A more recent one in the forest, we did use a bit of that because there was a long stretch where you say like right three left, five right.
Speaker B:Because you say that obviously it works up to 90 degrees of 1 to 7.
Speaker B:People do it differently.
Speaker B:I think sometimes they use 1 to 9, but it's kind of whatever, whatever suits you the best.
Speaker B:But everything on the northern dale is coming very quickly.
Speaker B:So again, you did have to alter your call out times.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it's like after you.
Speaker B:The first one, I'm kind of know what I'm doing.
Speaker B:I know how fast the car is going to go.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Christine is obviously he's a brilliant driver.
Speaker B:He's very competitive, as am I.
Speaker B:So I think we make a, make a good team.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:But yeah, no, that one we came first in class and 6 overall.
Speaker B:So for my.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, I mean some going really for like an early.
Speaker B:I mean it was my second venue, you could say, because obviously there was like three or four of the Workington ones before this one.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we did that one in a Sunbeam as well.
Speaker B:But it was really fun, it was really good.
Speaker B:My dad did it as well.
Speaker A:Did you beat him?
Speaker B:Obviously, but with the.
Speaker A:He will keep creaking around in old Avenger, won't he?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But the thing is about the Avengers, it's a long car and when you're doing the Northern Dales one, because of how tight the turns are and between the cones are, it is difficult to actually get the car around without hitting a cone.
Speaker B:10 second penalty was on that one for hitting a cone.
Speaker B:So you kind of, you know, it's worth slowing down a tiny bit if you're going to avoid the cone.
Speaker B:There's no point going fast and hitting all the cones because then you're just losing the, the speed, you know, what you've gained from being fast.
Speaker B:Losing it to time penalties.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But after that, my kind of targa rallies came to an end a bit.
Speaker B:Because of COVID Yeah.
Speaker B:Obviously they all stopped because being in a car together, obviously it was like not social distancing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So we had to stop for a year.
Speaker B:So I didn't actually do anything when I was 15.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which I was obviously really sad about because I'd got the bug and then we had to stop.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But after Covid we did the Northern Dales one again.
Speaker B:But we did it in a friend's Astra and we kept losing it was.
Speaker B:Kept losing the brakes in it.
Speaker B:So we didn't do very well.
Speaker B:I don't know when we did, what we did, what place we came, but it wasn't brilliant.
Speaker B:But you know, after losing the brakes, everything, it wasn't a surprise.
Speaker A:I mean that's the one thing, if you keep changing cars, I know you are only sat in it for want a better term, but you have to get used to them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:A different maker model of car will feel different.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean the co driver, the layout of your bits and pieces and equipment, everything else, the location changes.
Speaker A:So the pencils, the whatever aren't.
Speaker A:Whether you're used to them being in a Sunbeam.
Speaker B:No, exactly.
Speaker B:It was quite funny because in the Astra, obviously on quite a few rally cars they'll have a horn on the navigator side.
Speaker B:On the co driving side, it tends.
Speaker A:To be on your foot plate, don't it?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:It is on your foot plate.
Speaker B:However, when I'm navigating, I tend to move my feet around because I'm not very tall, so my legs don't sit properly all the way down.
Speaker B:So when my feet were moving around, kept pressing the horn and when we were going round, all you can hear is the horn going off.
Speaker B:And my mom was like, she's pressing the horn again with her feet.
Speaker B:So I didn't really enjoy that.
Speaker B:But it was fine because in the Subaru and the Sunbeam, the horn didn't actually work.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:It wasn't wired up, so it was fine.
Speaker B:No matter how many times I pressed it, it wouldn't go off.
Speaker B:But in the Astra, in the Astra it did.
Speaker A:So where did it all progress from there?
Speaker A:Because, I mean, you were recently the recipient of the Morecambe Car Club Targa Rally Championship Co Driver Awards.
Speaker A:I mean, you're doing quite well at this, aren't you?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So at this point, obviously we didn't win anything.
Speaker B:We win in our class, but still kind of building up my confidence, building up basically a skill set because it's not really like anything you do at this point.
Speaker B:I was 16, so I didn't drive myself on the proper roads and everything.
Speaker B:So it was all building up different skills, communication skills and everything.
Speaker A:I mean, just really, what license do you have to have?
Speaker A:Because the co driver has to have a license.
Speaker A:Sports association license.
Speaker B:Yeah, you have to have a motorsport license.
Speaker B:I can't specifically remember which one I had, but it was.
Speaker B:It was for co driving because obviously at that point I wasn't driving on anything, so I didn't need.
Speaker A:Because you're here, you'll have to have parental permission, won't you?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because when you had to fill out all the documentation, all the information my dad had to sign everything say that obviously he gave his permission.
Speaker B:And he was also an emergency contact because obviously with me being under 18, it all had to kind of be agreed upon on my parents.
Speaker B:So he had to sign everything.
Speaker B:We'd always kind of do it together because while he was filling his out, he was also filling mine out and everything.
Speaker B:But from there, to be able to receive the Morton Car Club thing, we went on to do the Knutsford Targa.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker B:Knutsford Targa is one of my favorites that we've done.
Speaker B:It's really well organized, it's a really good event and they do put on a lot of tests.
Speaker B:And that was at the Three Sisters racetrack.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:So it was quite different because obviously we did the Workington ones on the motorbike speedway track.
Speaker B:That was very dusty, but obviously this was tarmac.
Speaker A:This is very.
Speaker A:I mean, ultimately Three Sisters is a courting track and for.
Speaker A:For bikes.
Speaker A:Excuse me, but it is a very narrow, tight, twisty track.
Speaker B:Yes, it is.
Speaker B:It can be very difficult.
Speaker B:They didn't put too many cones on it because I think they wanted the cars to be able to go at the speed and kind of slide around the corners and everything.
Speaker B:And it did go really well.
Speaker B:It was really good.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:This was the first event that we did in the Subaru.
Speaker B:Yeah, the Subaru Impreza.
Speaker B:And we came first overall, which I was really happy about because that was our first overall that we had won and it was really good.
Speaker B:We did really well on it.
Speaker B:I can't remember if we got any cones.
Speaker B:We might have got one, but then gained.
Speaker B:Gained the speedback, gained the time back and everything, but it was really good.
Speaker B:However, my dad was not very lucky and because basically every event we do, my dad also does it.
Speaker B:But because I like to be competitive and obviously I've done it all with Christian.
Speaker B:I always do it with Christian.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But dad went on the first test and blew up his Avenger.
Speaker B:Alright.
Speaker B:So, you know, he wasn't as lucky.
Speaker B:He wasn't as lucky.
Speaker B:He wasn't very happy either.
Speaker B:But it was a really good event and it was really put on very well, to be honest.
Speaker A:But I mean, this is going.
Speaker A:I mean, like after you came back, after the lockdowns, what are the events you're doing or were the events doing?
Speaker A:Were they getting bigger events or longer events?
Speaker B:So straight after Covid, there wasn't much of a change in terms of what I noticed anyway.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was probably 20, I'd say about 20, 23.
Speaker B:Three that I really noticed.
Speaker B:The popularity of them really increasing.
Speaker B:But the.
Speaker B:The Northern Dales one, I mean, the.
Speaker A:Beauty of Targa is theoretically it's slightly cheaper motorsport.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because multisport, no matter how you look at it, is not the cheapest.
Speaker A:No, it's not sport to undertake.
Speaker B:And as a co driver, I'm very lucky because, you know, it's not my car.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:If it goes wrong, it's not me that's having to build it.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:And as one said to me, box of pencils, they're quite cheap compared to.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker B:So Targas are really good for that because, you know, when you step up to staging, you need the helmet, you need the race suit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's a lot more regulations with that.
Speaker B:Because obviously staging, you're going on the public roads.
Speaker B:But Targas, you don't go on the public roads.
Speaker A:I mean, the other rally that you do are 12 cars.
Speaker A:Now they are on public road, aren't they?
Speaker B:So I've not done a 12 car yet because I'm.
Speaker B:Have I?
Speaker A:No, I don't know about it.
Speaker A:Is dad John's in the background?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I wouldn't call it a full 12 car because what it was was we got given some maps and I was learning how to plot on actual road maps.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then after I learned how to plot those, we went and did like a mini 12 car type thing that I did with Christian.
Speaker B:And if I'm right, we used the rally test app.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Which was very interesting.
Speaker B:I might have got that wrong, but there was one that we used the rally test app on.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It was very weird to bring your phone into it, if that makes sense.
Speaker B:Obviously I've not been doing it for long at all, like, you know.
Speaker B:But what happened was whenever you got to a control, there'd be no Marshall there, like there would normally be.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you'd stop and you'd have to kind of wait for it a bit to then recognize that you were there and then you'd set off.
Speaker B:It was really weird because we were like, we stopped and we were waiting and we were, are we in the right area?
Speaker B:And then it kind of glowed green.
Speaker B:But it was very interesting to use on that.
Speaker B:It was very different because obviously the ones that I did before, we didn't use the app.
Speaker B:It was all, obviously Marshalls were there, stick the paper out and they sign it.
Speaker B:But I don't know if I liked it.
Speaker B:I don't think I like the app.
Speaker B:Obviously you'd think I would because obviously technology.
Speaker B:Young.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Your age, you'll love technology.
Speaker B:I do love technology.
Speaker B:However, I definitely preferred it without the Rally Test app.
Speaker B:However, I understand that obviously nowadays sometimes there's not as many marshals and the rally test app allows you to still have the controls to still slow cars down or to get the checkpoints without having the marshals to be there.
Speaker B:But when we did the northern Dales one for the third time when I was 17, I think that was.
Speaker B:So we came first overall on that one.
Speaker B:And I think there was the still.
Speaker B:The COVID kind of laws still kind of drifting over, so we had to wear the masks.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In the cars.
Speaker B:And it was a really hot day because the northern del is in the summer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I remember with this one, it was.
Speaker B:Christine was Absolutely sweating because of the work that you have to put into the car and everything while wearing a mask and everything.
Speaker B:It isn't brilliant on a hot day.
Speaker B:Another kind of funny story of Summit that might have happened to my dad that he wasn't happy about was the day before he decided to pass out and split his head open.
Speaker B:So he had to do the rally with a big bandage around his head with a mask on in very hot weather.
Speaker B:So it was a very, very warm day.
Speaker B:Very challenging.
Speaker B:But you kind of get why you have to take the precaution precautions.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:You can't do anything about it because at the end of the day, rules are rules.
Speaker B:But we came first on that one in the Subaru.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which was again, really good.
Speaker B:And that's kind of what built me up to be able to, like you said, earn the award of Morgan Car, the co driver award.
Speaker B:But it was, it was really good.
Speaker B:We then went and did the first 061Targa.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:@ Wheaton Barracks.
Speaker B:That was.
Speaker B:That was really good.
Speaker B:However, I wasn't actually with Christian, I was with his brother.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because Christian, I think he was on holiday day so he wasn't able to do it.
Speaker B:But Aaron and Christine both grew up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Rallying.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:I think they started when they were like 14 or summit.
Speaker B:But my dad knew Christian and Aaron when they were little.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Just as I grew up with them.
Speaker B:So we did that in the Subaru.
Speaker B:However, there was a lot of engine problems and between tests I was getting out and wafting the bonnet to try and throw the engine down.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that.
Speaker B:That was really interesting.
Speaker B:Also the brakes were still having problems with at that point.
Speaker A:But this one, that wasn't advice off your dad, who's also a steel mechanic.
Speaker A:Get out.
Speaker A:Monitor note.
Speaker B:No, it wasn't advice from him.
Speaker B:But, you know, it worked for a bit.
Speaker B:You know, this one wasn't brilliant as had a little bit of problem with a Marshall saying that we did something which I really disagreed on.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what had happened was the.
Speaker B:We got back, finished the test and they're like, you've got a penalty.
Speaker B:You went the wrong way.
Speaker B:And we were really confused, obviously, because we were like, where?
Speaker B:And they said that we went round a hairpin, the wrong side of the cone.
Speaker B:But I said to them, I was like, look, if we were on the wrong side of the cone and you're doing a hairpin, you're going to end up going the wrong way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But we got the.
Speaker B:The next ones after that and after that.
Speaker B:So I was like, we Didn't.
Speaker B:We couldn't have gone the wrong way because we would be facing the wrong way and then going the wrong way and have to turn around.
Speaker B:But at that point, the Marshall had gone home.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And obviously the rule in motorsport is the Marshall is the judge of fact.
Speaker B:What they say goes.
Speaker B:You can't.
Speaker B:You can't challenge that or anything.
Speaker B:So I wasn't a very happy bunny.
Speaker B:But, you know, I think we.
Speaker B:That really knocked us back a lot with that penalty because we were up there despite having the engine problems.
Speaker B:I think we came seventh overall.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it was, you know, I get it.
Speaker B:Marshall's church effect, of course, but there's just no way that I could have.
Speaker B:That we could have gone the wrong way because we would have been in the wrong direction.
Speaker B:If we did go the wrong way, obviously, I'd hold my hands up and go, yeah, that's fair enough.
Speaker B:We went the wrong way.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker A:So I know the favorite thing on a lot of rallying, where you've arrived at the time control.
Speaker A:The problem is you should have arrived from that direction, not this one.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:And the fact that we got every other cone, like straight after that, because like I said, the cones are very one after the other.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it was a hairpin.
Speaker B:There's no way that we would have been able to do that.
Speaker B:But Marshall, judge of fact.
Speaker B:So there was literally nothing that we could have done about that.
Speaker B:And then we went on to the Knutsford again.
Speaker B:So Knutsford and 061 are ones that we do quite a lot because they are good events, they're quite close by.
Speaker B:Because the thing about Targarys is there is loads.
Speaker B:There's loads on.
Speaker B:But a lot of them are down south or in Wales or very, very north in Scotland.
Speaker B:So it is a shame that there's not a lot on near us that would require us to travel because at this point I'm going off to uni.
Speaker B:So it was really tricky.
Speaker A:And I mean, just looking at.
Speaker A:You went to university studying business management.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, in many ways that could be beneficial because I've always known the co driver, Stroke navigator once described to me as.
Speaker A:And it's perfectly true, when you're in that car or you're on an event, you are the office manager.
Speaker A:You've got to keep the driver in order, the car in order, all the notes, information, everything else.
Speaker A:The driver just turns up, drives behind the wheel.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Does.
Speaker A:Is it that side that appeals to you, like the.
Speaker A:On the business side?
Speaker B:I'd say so.
Speaker B:I Think obviously everything is linked, why I like doing business management, why I like co driving.
Speaker B:It is all because obviously at the start of any event, you get your pack with all your time sheets in, your maps in and everything.
Speaker B:It's kind of your job to say, right, we're car number whatever, so we need to start at this time.
Speaker B:Obviously things do get delayed, but then it's all about you having to then go find out what's been delayed, how long it's been delayed for, what's our start?
Speaker A:Especially when it's raining, you sit in the car and say to your navigator co driver, just nip over there and find out what we're doing, will you?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Getting out, going, finding out.
Speaker B:Because on a few of them we have been car one or like car two.
Speaker B:Yeah, car one.
Speaker B:I feel like it always gives you bad luck, which I'll tell you about on the.
Speaker B:On one of the more recent ones that we did when we.
Speaker B:Car one.
Speaker B:But I always say that I prefer to be car two or car three.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because you're not the first one out.
Speaker B:Like, yes, you have the course car that goes out and make sure.
Speaker B:But it's always good not to be the first one out.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But anyway, we went to do the Knutsford again, second time at Three Sisters track.
Speaker B:We ended up second because what had happened was it was a very, very wet day and obviously.
Speaker B:Well, you'll know the shoes that the drivers wear, they don't have masses amount of grip on them.
Speaker B:And what had happened was obviously Christian got in the car with wet feet.
Speaker B:He's actually recently bought some Cubbers, a little vautiste.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, he's recently got them.
Speaker B:So this, this didn't happen again.
Speaker B:But anyway, we got in the car, we'd gone around the whole track, nothing wrong, no problems, went the right way and everything.
Speaker B:And we went to stop a stride because obviously at every target event you have to stop a stride.
Speaker B:If you don't, you get a penalty.
Speaker B:His foot slipped off the brake and we ended up kind of going way too far.
Speaker B:Used his handbrake, obviously, so we didn't go way too far.
Speaker B:But that was a shame because we got the penalty for that and obviously ended up second.
Speaker B:But you know, I don't blame him for that one.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:It was a very wet day.
Speaker B:But then that leads us to the.
Speaker B:My first Morcom Car Club awards night.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B: In the February of: Speaker B:I was actually really lucky I came away with four trophies, which I was very happy about.
Speaker B:I got best novice Navigator, best road rally champion, co driver, best lady competitor, best newcomer.
Speaker A:Well done.
Speaker A:And your dad bought you a bottle of brass or to polish them.
Speaker B:I had them all on display.
Speaker A:Now, you mentioned Michelle Mouton, who is literally merely female.
Speaker A:Doesn't make any difference.
Speaker A:One of the world's greatest rally drivers and only missed out on being a champion due to personal circumstances.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Her own co driver, famous one.
Speaker A:Fabrizia Pons, co driver.
Speaker A:I mean, Michelle Bouton's retired.
Speaker A:She's had enough.
Speaker A:Although she just has been inducted into the Pikes Peak hall of Fame.
Speaker A:I mean, Pons is still co driving.
Speaker A:I mean, she did Sebastian Loeb.
Speaker A:There's Tina Torson who was a famous co driver.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, do you intend keeping going at the core driver?
Speaker A:And it does the lure of the steering wheel, is it getting to you?
Speaker B:It's getting to me.
Speaker B:Especially since my dad's recently bought a Mazda MX5 for us to share.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:However, he's not, he's not letting me kind of change anything about the car.
Speaker B:Thinking, oh, I want this color.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:For the roof.
Speaker B:But he's like, no.
Speaker B:So I've not had any decorative input.
Speaker B:It is for us to share, is for us to use.
Speaker B:I'm hoping that Morgan Car Club are going to put like a 12 car.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For me to have a go at because.
Speaker A:Can I drive now?
Speaker B:Yeah, Yeah.
Speaker B:I passed when I was 17.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It kind of was like as soon as I turned 17, you'd have to.
Speaker A:Be proud and then think, how much is this gonna cost me?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He wasn't, he wasn't very happy when he heard I wanted a Mini.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B: in a: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I thought it was only right to then get a Mini one for my first car.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker B:Got my actual license when I was 17.
Speaker B:So I've been driving for nearly three years now.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it, it is enticing me to give it a go.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:At the drive in.
Speaker B:But like I said, I'd want to kind of ease into it with the 12 cars.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But that doesn't mean that I want to stop co driving.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because we, you know, we've done quite a few of these local events a lot because, well, Christian's just had.
Speaker B:He's got two young children.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:One's three and one's still.
Speaker B:Still like a baby.
Speaker B:He's like nearly one, I think.
Speaker B:So obviously he's had to slow down but it's worked out really well with me going to university.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because we have both slowed down.
Speaker B:But the.
Speaker B:The driving is definitely enticed me to do it, but I wouldn't want to stop co driving.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I feel like me and Christian do work really well together and it would be a shame to stop that.
Speaker B:But that doesn't mean that I can't do both.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So how will you advance your rallying career?
Speaker A:Do you have to.
Speaker A:Is there a point where you will have to choose which you want to do?
Speaker A:Drive or cord?
Speaker A:I know you haven't driven in, but.
Speaker B:I'd assume so because, like, it is expensive.
Speaker B:I'm a student.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So at this point in time I think obviously the.
Speaker B:My dad's not got the car ready yet, so I'll be still.
Speaker B:Hint, hint.
Speaker B:I'll be.
Speaker B:I'll be still navigating for a bit.
Speaker B:We've got some roads that we're interested to do this year, but until the Mazda's ready and maybe until I finished uni, I won't properly get involved in the driving because obviously I'm back from uni only at summer, Easter and Christmas.
Speaker B:You do get quite a few targas in the summer, but not loads.
Speaker B:So I feel like I might as well wait until I finish uni to actually.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Try driving.
Speaker B:I have been asked by different people to navigate for them.
Speaker A:I mean, will you move the size of rallies that you do?
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker B:I'm really interested in doing a stage rally.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think I've just acquired a helmet.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that's good.
Speaker B:But yeah, no, I'm really interested in it because that's what I've grown up watching my dad do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And watching Christian because like, even though I never gave Christian now, I've grew up watching him as well as my dad and Danny Cowell.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Past guest.
Speaker B:Past guest.
Speaker B:But I've grown up watching him do it and everything.
Speaker B:So it is definitely something that I am really interested in.
Speaker B:I do want to have a bit more practice though because I only did one.
Speaker B:Like I said about the.
Speaker B:The mini, like 12 car thing.
Speaker B:I only learned a bit then and I haven't really touched it since.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it is obviously step up using bigger maps because when you do targas it's either like a four.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or a three maps that I'm working with.
Speaker B:Not ones that you have to fold and everything like that and do your little pencil markers on.
Speaker B:But no, I definitely do want to step up and do some of Those and then have a go at driving.
Speaker B:See how I like it.
Speaker B:Cuz I might, I might not like it.
Speaker B:I might prefer co driving.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Hey, there has been the old driver who has actually made a name for the.
Speaker A:For themselves as a co driver.
Speaker A:They preferred co driving to drive it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:So I can definitely see that, that coming up at some point but definitely after I've finished uni I'd say because just not enough time.
Speaker A:Do you see yourself achieving the heights of WRC being what in one of the top teams in World Rally Championship?
Speaker B:I mean you can always.
Speaker B:I feel like there's no point limiting yourself of what you want to achieve.
Speaker B:Like you can kind of do anything if you put your mind to it.
Speaker B:But I would want to keep going.
Speaker B:Like I said, like when Michelle Mouton was like doing everything, she was around my age doing it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And she.
Speaker B:I think I watched it, it was like called the Queen of Speed.
Speaker B:I don't know if you've seen.
Speaker A:Oh the other one because it's after a nickname, the Black Volcano because of what she had then which was long black hair.
Speaker A:She's a gray haired old lady now.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But after watching the Queen of Speed like she was my age doing all this like I feel like it's never too late to do anything.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:But whilst I'm still young I do want to properly get into it and see how far I can go with it because Christian, I saw Christian last night and he was saying about teaching me the driving side of everything and properly teaching me how to do everything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which would be really good for me to do in the MX5.
Speaker A:I suppose the thing is if you know how to do it as a co driver it'll give you a greater appreciation of what's going on.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:It's good to know both sides.
Speaker B:Like I said earlier, it's good for the driver to understand how navigating what it's like and what it's like to be sat in the co driving seat and everything.
Speaker B:But it is really good to see both sides of it and I am excited to see what it's like from the driving point of view because obviously I, I drive normally.
Speaker B:That's nothing like.
Speaker B:Nothing like driving on a Targa rally.
Speaker A:I mean the ultimate.
Speaker A:And it has to be the final question.
Speaker A:Would you navigate for your dad, John?
Speaker A:Is it too much?
Speaker B:I don't want to say it but I'm going to say it.
Speaker B:He is a little bit old now and.
Speaker A:And he's an illman Avenger.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's an Avenger.
Speaker B:I do really like the Subaru, but I think because I've been doing it for.
Speaker B:Let's see.
Speaker B:So I started when I was 14, nearly six years with Christian.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he is a really.
Speaker B:Like I said, he's a really talented driver and we're both very competitive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I think for now, whilst Christian's still available, still going with him.
Speaker B:But I wouldn't say no to doing one mobad.
Speaker B:Maybe like a stage event or something.
Speaker B:That'd be good.
Speaker A:Molly Livermore, it's been a pleasure chatting to you.
Speaker A:Thank you very much for joining me on the backseat driver.
Speaker A:And all the best for you, or rallying career either side of the car in the future.
Speaker B:Thank you.
