Insights from EpocAuto 2025
It’s me, Mark Stone, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I travel to EpocAuto 2025, held just outside Lyon, France, one of Europe’s most celebrated showcases of classic and vintage motoring.
I explore the event’s standout exhibits, including a stunning display of BBM racing cars and a lesser-known but remarkable French marque curated by Gérard Gamont, who shares the fascinating story behind BBM’s legacy and engineering brilliance. The episode also features an insightful conversation with Jacques Nicolet, CEO of Ligier, as he reflects on the company’s fifty-year journey, its continued innovation, and the enduring spirit that keeps Ligier at the forefront of motorsport.
Along the way, I speak with a variety of exhibitors, who introduce unique automotive projects and delve into the history of vintage fire service vehicles on display. Through these conversations, I aim to highlight the craftsmanship, creativity, and cultural significance that make French motoring so captivating, celebrating both its heritage and its ever-evolving story.
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Transcript
Foreign based just outside the city of Lyon.
Speaker A:So once again it's time for its me, Mark Stone, Barry Katoine Linni to head to this fantastic classic car exhibition.
Speaker A:It's the great and the good and the celebration of all things classic, not just the high end.
Speaker A:There's plenty of high end stuff there, but there's plenty of good ordinary classic coins in various states of build.
Speaker A:From immaculate to a shell, plenty of spare parts.
Speaker A:That's what this show specializes in, keeping your classic on the road and potentially showing you how it should be when you finished.
Speaker A: h the doors of The Epoch Auto: Speaker A:Attending an event in France will not be complete without an interview with the one, the only, Gerard Gamont of Autodiva.
Speaker A:And this year the display here in Lyon is exceptional, full of BBM and I shall hold my hand up.
Speaker A:I have heard of BBM racing cars, single seaters and prototypes but Gerard Gamond, auto diva.
Speaker A:Welcome back to the back seat driver.
Speaker B:Yes, thank you very much.
Speaker B:BBM is a French marque.
Speaker B: It was born in: Speaker B:It's about 46 car was built during the between 69 and 76 and it is a little French mark, not very well known even in France.
Speaker A:It's no surprise that in England we haven't heard of them.
Speaker B:No, because they have never raced in international, they just race in historic race in international but not during the period, during the period the car was always in France.
Speaker A:What does BBM mean?
Speaker A:What does it mean?
Speaker A:Stand for?
Speaker B:Yes, BBM is the initial of the founders.
Speaker B:It was Pierre Bertin Bouchu and another man we called Martin B. Bertin, B. Bouchu and Martin but Martin leave immediately and the real constructor was Pierre Bertin Bouchu.
Speaker A:Have you driven any of these cars?
Speaker B:Yes, I drive the C1 with a V12 Lamborghini.
Speaker B:I have drive the little Berlinetta, the blue one with GM.
Speaker B:Er, it was the first BBM and I've drive this one with a 2 liters GRD Simca.
Speaker A:And what do they like to drive.
Speaker B:The BBM with a V12 Lamborghini.
Speaker B:It's incredible car, it's about 400bhp and with a very good engine.
Speaker B:It is a Carter Sec.
Speaker B:I don't know what you say in English.
Speaker B:It is a small car tire with oil and with a pump and the engine go up to 400bhp and very soft to drive.
Speaker B:And the sound absolutely marvelous.
Speaker B:It's a V12.
Speaker B:V12 sounds.
Speaker B:It's tremendous.
Speaker B:Like a V12 Matra and a V12 Ferrari.
Speaker A:Now I know for a fact this is probably one of the first times so many BBM have been on display.
Speaker A:How did you manage to bring them all together?
Speaker B:Because a friend of me bought the Mark, bought the BBM marque and they do a fantastic job to prepare the exhibition.
Speaker B:When last year I say we do an exhibition for BBM and they say yes, that's a good idea.
Speaker B:But after I put the phone they say I am crazy.
Speaker B:It's impossible to do edit the cars here.
Speaker A:How many still exist?
Speaker A:How many BABM are there still to be found or seen?
Speaker B:I think it's about 25.
Speaker B:About 25 and running is about 12, something like that.
Speaker A:If somebody in England wants to see them, where can they go and look at them both as a display or actually competing.
Speaker B:For see the car on the track.
Speaker B:It is an historic meeting in.
Speaker B:Historic meeting in the exhibition meeting.
Speaker B:And they don't race in historic championship.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:This one, the blue one race in the Sport Polo Cup.
Speaker B:But the Sport Polo cup, it's finished now.
Speaker B:So it's the only exhibition.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But will you be driving one again?
Speaker A:Do you think you will be back behind the wheel of a bbm?
Speaker B:I expect to drive on a monoposto and a single seater.
Speaker B:Probably this one.
Speaker B:It is a Formula Renault Europe for 76 and.
Speaker B:But it is a Renault gearbox and I hate the Renault gearbox.
Speaker B:It don't work.
Speaker B:It's always big problem when you arrive quick on the corner and brake late.
Speaker B:The gearbox is not like Newland.
Speaker B:I love Newland for the historic car and I don't like the Renault gearbox.
Speaker A:I think it's nice to see them.
Speaker A:What has the reaction been from people seeing them?
Speaker B:All the people are very surprised that a French constructor built such beautiful car.
Speaker B:Because the mark, the trade, the mark is not known.
Speaker B:And the BBM sells in the beginning they say brm.
Speaker B:No, no, it's BBM and bbm we don't know.
Speaker B:And here every people say, wow, it's impressive.
Speaker B:It's really.
Speaker A:I think it's very impressive.
Speaker A:The lead up to the show I said to my colleague Marie Katharine, I've never heard of these cars.
Speaker A:I said, I want to see Them and they are very impressive cars.
Speaker B:Yes, I think the first thing is the car are very well designed, very well designed and after very well built and after no money look.
Speaker B:So they cannot be successful because in racing car you need a lot of money.
Speaker B:So it's the reason why there are not fantastic result for international.
Speaker B:For example, just in French they win championship, but just in French it's absolutely.
Speaker A:Fantastic to see them.
Speaker A:Truly fantastic.
Speaker A:And I hope after this show and this interview, more people want to find out about them.
Speaker A:But once again, Gerard Gamont, auto diva himself.
Speaker A:Thank you very much for joining me on the backseat driver.
Speaker B:Thank you, dear friend.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker A: Epoch Auto: Speaker A:We have been supposed to have been meeting each other for at least five years.
Speaker C:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:Once on FaceTime, very briefly.
Speaker A: we are sat here at epoch auto: Speaker A:It is Francois Martini, the man who is definitely shaken, not stirred.
Speaker A:Francois, welcome to the backseat driver.
Speaker C:Thanks for this.
Speaker C:Thanks to meet you Mark.
Speaker C:And excuse me for my English, I didn't use it since school and it's a little bit dusty.
Speaker A:It's better than my French, which is non existent now the one thing you're known for, apart from having been a co presenter on Passion Autosport DVAR with Marie Katharine, is you race and rally a Volvo Amazon and you used to enjoy driving very quickly in a Mark 1 escort.
Speaker A:Are you still doing this?
Speaker C: f rallying and ilklims in the: Speaker C:Five years ago to drive this Volvo Amazon that is the only in France to ride in a vehicle historic.
Speaker C:The competition virtual.
Speaker A:How did you find when you returned to motorsport?
Speaker A: ecause I have been away since: Speaker C:It's easy to make a return.
Speaker C:The water is always boiling slowly and we need a little spark to dress it up.
Speaker A:So what whereabouts do you race now?
Speaker A:What do you race in what series or what races?
Speaker C:In historic meetings on circuit Polaricard.
Speaker C:I live in the south of France, around the shore and it's easy, it's not far.
Speaker C:It's a pleasure to go to the circuit Paul Ricard.
Speaker C:That is a fantastic track.
Speaker A:It is the last circuit I competed at and the one thing that sticks in my mind nothing to do with the racing.
Speaker A:The steaks they serve in the driver's restaurant are fantastic.
Speaker C:All you can eat in France is really, really, really fine.
Speaker C:The best coffee is in Italy.
Speaker C:The best meat is in France.
Speaker C:And in English, the best tea.
Speaker A:You used to drive a Ford Escort, didn't you?
Speaker A:Mexico?
Speaker C: he Ford escort, Mexico and RS: Speaker C:I can choose.
Speaker C:When I lift up the door of the garage, I can choose.
Speaker C:It's a pleasure.
Speaker A:So what.
Speaker A:What is waiting ahead for Francois Martini?
Speaker C:I'm retired since three months, so I'm discovering a world without any problem.
Speaker C:Everything is quiet.
Speaker C:No more problem at work, because no work anymore.
Speaker C:It's a pleasure.
Speaker A:And are you enjoying Epoch Auto?
Speaker C:I enjoy what?
Speaker A:Are you enjoying the show?
Speaker C:Yes, I enjoy this show, but I'm surprised because there is many, many, many people and we are only Friday.
Speaker C:Yes, it's full.
Speaker A:It gets worse as the three days go on.
Speaker C:Tomorrow it will be hell and Sunday hell.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:Francois Martini, at last we have met and it's been a pleasure and thank you for joining me on the backseat driver.
Speaker C:It's a pleasure, Mark.
Speaker C:I was waiting for it since many years.
Speaker A:Five years in total.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Thanks very much again, Francois.
Speaker A:Ciao.
Speaker A:I would like to welcome to the backseat driver Jacques Nicolet, CEO of Ligier.
Speaker A:Jacques, welcome to the backseat driver.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker D:Welcome to you.
Speaker A:We are celebrating 50 years of Ligier, aren't we?
Speaker D:Yes, 50 years of Ligier.
Speaker D:Since the beginning of this big story with the GS2 first and after all the F1 period.
Speaker D:And now with the sport prototype and a new generation of single seater.
Speaker D:Not Formula one, but new generation of single seater.
Speaker A:It is nice to see Ligier still exists.
Speaker A:They are a very, very famous French marque, very successful and they have a tremendous story to tell.
Speaker D:Yes, I hope that we can say that Ligier still exists.
Speaker D:Since we have started the new, let's say the new generation, we have product and sold around 700 cars in the world.
Speaker D:We had last year a little bit less of a 400 cars running in the world in different championship and in different categories.
Speaker D:Today we have a department of single seater, sport prototype ngt.
Speaker D:At this time we are presenting fully new car in Le Castellet.
Speaker D:The name is the GS2RS, which is a kind of GT3, a very, very nice GT to be able to run in endurance race with a very reasonable running cost.
Speaker A:And you will be running at Le Mans, the Van Quattreau de Mall.
Speaker D:No, no, for me now it's finished because of the competitivity of the car today and the race also it's more and more difficult for the real gentleman driver to run in Le Mans.
Speaker D:But I am still running on the track of Le Mans with the Ligier European series because we have one race in the same week of the 24 Hours of Le Mans and I am doing it each year on GS P4.
Speaker A:And are you enjoying success or are the victories coming?
Speaker D:Yes, yes, but I have to.
Speaker D:I have to manage the fact that it's difficult for me to be in competition with my customer.
Speaker D:So I have to be very careful.
Speaker A:And the races you are taking part in, are they mainly in France or are they all over the world?
Speaker D:For the cars you say no, we have one part of the company in US at Charlotte and we have a big number of cars running in the US even with the single seater.
Speaker D:We have more than 100 single seater running in different championships in the US and also a lot of LMP3 in different championships in the US.
Speaker A:What engines power the Ligier now?
Speaker D:It depends on the car.
Speaker D:If we speak about the GS2 Air, we have 350 horsepower.
Speaker D:The GS2 RS, I was speaking, we have 650 horsepower.
Speaker D:The LMP3 is around 460 horsepower.
Speaker D:The new GSF 326, the regulation impose 300 horsepower.
Speaker D:We have different level of power.
Speaker A:And who makes the engines?
Speaker D:It depends on the category.
Speaker D:It depends on the rules.
Speaker D:With the LMP3 now it's Toyota engine.
Speaker D:On the GS2 Air and GS2 RS it is.
Speaker D:It's a Ford engine.
Speaker D:The new engine in the GS F326 is a Volvo 2 liter engine.
Speaker D:Yes, with geely it depends.
Speaker D:We can adapt a lot of engine on our cars.
Speaker A:And I conclude, given the fame especially of Guy Ligier, you are still enjoying the same levels of people knowing the name, people knowing Ligier.
Speaker D:Yes, I hope, I hope to be.
Speaker D:To be able to achieve this target because.
Speaker D:And I was.
Speaker D:How to say that in English?
Speaker D:I was very proud to be able to have a deal with Guy to go on his passion.
Speaker D:And I had the pleasure to work with him.
Speaker D:Only two years, but it was two years.
Speaker D:Very exciting.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, Gueligier went against the odds, didn't he?
Speaker A:People said he would succeed, but he did.
Speaker D:So he.
Speaker A:Ligier worked hard to bring Ligier to the fore.
Speaker A:To make them a famous French racing car.
Speaker D:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker D:But the, the.
Speaker D:He was.
Speaker D:For me the, the.
Speaker D:The fact that at the end the Formula one was too difficult for a private team.
Speaker D:Private Entrepreneur to succeed in Formula one.
Speaker D:It was too difficult at the end.
Speaker A:But the one thing is Ligier had some very famous drivers drive their cars.
Speaker D:Yes, yes, yes, of course.
Speaker D:And we still have a famous driver in our cars, of course.
Speaker A:So where of all the cars here at the Epoch Auto, are they all Ligier's own cars?
Speaker D:No, no, no.
Speaker D:We own some of these cars, but not all the cars we have on the.
Speaker D:Because we have a lot of passion customer.
Speaker D:They are happy to have their car on the Plateau to participate with us at this fantastic show.
Speaker D:Because Epochoto is a very successful show.
Speaker A:And I conclude this is the first time for a long while so many Ligiers have come together.
Speaker D:Maybe, maybe.
Speaker D:I have no idea, but maybe you are right.
Speaker A:Whereabouts is Ligier based?
Speaker A:Whereabouts is the company based?
Speaker D:The company.
Speaker D:So the big part of the company is based in Manicure and as I said, we have a part in Charlotte.
Speaker A:On the US and they are manufactured there.
Speaker D:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker D:We have a company in Italy who manage all the carbon fiber of our product, but it is owned by the same group and so it's a sister company from four regions.
Speaker A:Yeah, but it is nice to see them.
Speaker A:And Jacques Nicolet, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me.
Speaker A:And it is nice to see Ligier is still here and still going strong.
Speaker D:Thank you to you and I hope to see you next time on a track.
Speaker A:It would be nice.
Speaker A: It was: Speaker A:But once again, Jack Nick, CEO of Ligier, thank you very much indeed.
Speaker D:Thanks.
Speaker D:Thanks to you.
Speaker A:Here at Epoch Auto with Thomas Duba, who is the president of M's Car Horizons.
Speaker A:Their ideas take old cars and turn them into new things, such as turning a Mini, a proper genuine Mini into a swing.
Speaker A:Thomas, welcome to the backseat driver.
Speaker E:Thank you a lot.
Speaker A:How did these this idea come about?
Speaker E:I old car lover.
Speaker E:I very want to make a rodeo of old car.
Speaker E:I just want to make a rodeo because for me it's a automobile pattern one and it's just not possible to put in a bin.
Speaker A:Where do you find the cars?
Speaker E:A friend, social media, A seller.
Speaker E:I use all car.
Speaker E:My clients have vehicles.
Speaker E:I take it, I take all vehicles.
Speaker E:I have no limit.
Speaker A:So you're making a swing out of a Mini.
Speaker A:The other thing, you make the back end of a car, even down to having a petrol pump in it.
Speaker A:Where does design come from?
Speaker A:Is it yours or is it the client or.
Speaker E:This is my idea.
Speaker E:We work, him and me is a really Collaboration on my father.
Speaker E:I take all ideas of my wife.
Speaker E:I thank all for creating this.
Speaker E:It's a very new company.
Speaker E:We have six months in development today it's Epochoto.
Speaker E:It's a really opportunity to show my product.
Speaker E:Most people like my work.
Speaker E:It's just amazing for my company.
Speaker E:I take more contact, I take more opportunity, I take more potential seller.
Speaker E:Just amazing for me.
Speaker A:So you're glad you've been to Epoch Auto?
Speaker E:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:Thomas Debar, thank you very much for joining me on the backseat driver.
Speaker E:Thank you too.
Speaker A:Here with Linda at Epoch Auto at the huge stand, the huge exhibition.
Speaker A:As you walk into the first hall, I shall let Linda tell you what the museum is called in French.
Speaker F:Musee des Sa Penpiers de Lyon.
Speaker F:Ronin.
Speaker A:Basically, it's a vast display of French fire engines and vehicles involved with French firefighting.
Speaker A:How big is the museum?
Speaker A:Because I mean.
Speaker A:I mean, this is just a few.
Speaker F:Yes, this is just a few because we have 150 vehicles displayed in our museum reserves.
Speaker F:So today we have 19 of them.
Speaker F:But we have vehicles dating back from 18th century and all types of vehicles that were used by firemen since the 18th century.
Speaker A:How long has the museum been in existence?
Speaker F: It exists since: Speaker A:Besides this, do the vehicles go out and display and demonstrate or are they always static?
Speaker F:Some of them.
Speaker F:We can loan some vehicles for special occasions and sometimes we can just drive them, but only people of the museum.
Speaker A:They will appear on television and things like that, won't they?
Speaker F:Yeah, sometimes.
Speaker F:Sometimes we can just show some of them in special missions.
Speaker A:Which are the rare ones you have.
Speaker F: to pump of the Lyons Fireman,: Speaker F:So that's one of the most important piece of our collection.
Speaker F:Okay.
Speaker F: It's: Speaker F:And after that most of the vehicles were produced in very big series.
Speaker F:So it's less interesting for a museum.
Speaker F:Yeah, we could have some vehicles from now, right now that were used last year, but it's not a patrimonial use and it's not.
Speaker F:Yeah, we buy anytime we can.
Speaker F:We buy new vehicles, but most of the time when we just get them in the museum, they are in very bad condition.
Speaker F:And our firemen here, they are all volunteers and they just work a very amazing amount of hours on each vehicle so that you can see it like it is now because you feel like they are kind of new.
Speaker F:Even if they're old, but usually when we get them it's just very, very in a very bad condition.
Speaker A:And the people who volunteer are all firemen.
Speaker F:Most of them are.
Speaker F:For example, today all of the volunteers on Ipwakoto are former firemen.
Speaker F:But we also have some few volunteers that just come because they love the firemen world and they just want to help.
Speaker F:But most of our volunteers are former firemen from Lyon or around Lyon.
Speaker A:What, what has the reaction of the public been to all these fire vehicles?
Speaker F:Most of the people are just wow, because there's a lot of bread and you have the aerial ladder and I think it's really rare to see all those old firemen vehicles like this.
Speaker F:So yeah, people are really happy but.
Speaker A:It'S nice to see the them.
Speaker A:So Linda, thank you very much for joining me on the backseat drive.
Speaker F:Thanks you.
Speaker A:No visit to a French car show would be complete without a quick chat with the backseat drivers.
Speaker A:French correspondent, one of France's top motorsport photographers and Mark Stones.
Speaker A:It's me, Mark Stones, translator Marie Katharine Linny, also known AKA the French diva herself, Marie Katharine, welcome back to the backseat driver.
Speaker G:Thank you very much.
Speaker A:Mark Stone, what's your opinion been of this year's Epoch Auto?
Speaker A:Now before you answer that in my opinion, the Alta Diva display of the BBMS was unbelievable.
Speaker A:Racing cars I'd never seen before and I don't think you'd seen them.
Speaker A:Ligier's fantastic display and the chance to have a chat with the man who's now the CEO and the fact his entire family run it all the French pompier, that's fireman for you and me.
Speaker A:The displays have been fantastic but I think in the main there hasn't been as many cars there.
Speaker G:Could you repeat the question please?
Speaker G:What can I say after that?
Speaker G:I agree with that and yes, the very, very beautiful exposition of sport cars with autodiva BBM cars and restorated, restored, restored, very, very well and the public can see they haven't seen for a long time.
Speaker A:As I said just putting in, I knew nothing about BBM and talking to Gerard Gamont, etc.
Speaker A:I don't think a lot of the French know a lot about bbm.
Speaker G:Yes, me too.
Speaker G:It's my shame and, but now I know that and I've met the man, the garage who took care of this, those cars and, and I can say that they have made a very beautiful work to take the memories of this brand and it was very, very, it's something absolutely stunning, beautiful.
Speaker G:And I'm sure that the Public would like it and I like too the exposition of DS Sichuan DS for the 70 anniversary of.
Speaker G:Of this model and there were.
Speaker G:It was very, very beautiful model with.
Speaker G:And we can see how at this time the different colors of the car.
Speaker G:Absolutely stunning.
Speaker G:And the exposition put a car and a beautiful iconic dress what we call in France haute couture.
Speaker G:And to make how cars and dresses could have the same elegance.
Speaker G:Beautiful, very beautiful exposition of fire.
Speaker A:Fire engines.
Speaker G:Fire engine from the Fire Engine Museum near Lyon.
Speaker G:Absolutely stunning.
Speaker G:They.
Speaker G:And they're restored.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker G:The director told us that a lot of vehicles were found sometimes in the stable or in the farm or in what we call a casern.
Speaker G:I don't know in English.
Speaker A:Basically just abandoned.
Speaker G:And they have made very, very important work to make them so beautiful for the public.
Speaker G:And I'm sure the public will.
Speaker G:Would like it or have liked it a lot.
Speaker G:And what else?
Speaker A:Well, I don't think in the May there's been as many coys there as previous years.
Speaker A:The big displays were there but the smaller displays of Coys didn't seem to be there.
Speaker G:But it's.
Speaker G:It was a.
Speaker G:A salon about pieces of vintage cars.
Speaker G:Historic and old cars and a place where people can find a lot of things to restore their own cars and vintage car and.
Speaker A:And the father and son who cut up vintage cars and make furniture out of.
Speaker G:Yes, yes, we have made new enterprise to make little things with pieces of cars and to keep the memories of it.
Speaker A:Marie Katharine, as always it's been a pleasure.
Speaker A:Thanks very much for coming joining me once again on the backseat drive.
Speaker G:Thanks to you to come to France and to make the compliment about our car industries.
Speaker G:Historic cars, French historic cars we have seen during the Epoch Koto always and I was very surprised always as always and very happy to see how many people come to see it.
Speaker A:Well, that's it.
Speaker A: Epoch Auto: Speaker A:The exhibition of the Pompier which is the French fire engines.
Speaker A:Etc.
Speaker A:Absolutely unbelievable.
Speaker A:As my chat with Linda, one of the directors of the museum was able to point out the display of Ligier F1 cars and prototypes beyond belief.
Speaker A:And it was nice to discover that Ligier are still up and running and producing 750 racing cars each and every year long may reign.
Speaker A:Fantastic.
Speaker A:Absolutely fantastic racing name.
Speaker A:They are what you might call the French equivalent of Tyrrell.
Speaker A:Though of course a little bit different.
Speaker A:Regrettably Tyrrell went out of business much to everybody's regret.
Speaker A:Ligier are still hard at it and the BBM on the autodiva stand with Gerard Gamont.
Speaker A:Absolutely fantastic to actually come across a brand or make of racing car very few people have heard of.
Speaker A:I'd never heard of them.
Speaker A:Marie Katharine had never heard of them, and it's surprising how many French people have never heard of them.
Speaker A:And it's one of their own.
Speaker A:But no, absolutely great show.
Speaker A:Different this year, as I said.
Speaker A:Probably not as many cars on show, but plenty of spare parts books.
Speaker A:If you're after a book on any form of motoring and motorsport, you name your make, model, brand, personality, race circuit, race series, you name it, you will find it at Epoch Auto along with a whole host of other things.
Speaker A: So From Epoch Auto: Speaker A:And did once again on this particular occasion.
Speaker A:Ciao, CIA Sam.
