Exploring the Legacy of John Livermore in Rallying
It’s me, Mark Stone here, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I’m joined by rally veteran John Livermore to explore the rich and varied world of rally driving. John takes me through his remarkable journey in the sport, shaped by family connections and personal experiences, and shares his insights into how rally cars and events have evolved over the years.
We discuss the importance of accessibility in rallying, the thriving grassroots scene, and the sense of community that binds enthusiasts together. This episode celebrates not just the thrill of competition, but the enduring passion and camaraderie that make rallying such a special part of motorsport.
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Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Yes, it's me, Mike Stone, and this is the Backseat Driver podcast.
Speaker B:It's the fastest, it's the friendliest, and it's for all the family.
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Speaker B: -: Speaker B:I'd like to introduce you the Backseat Driver Radio Show, a rally driver and the father of a previous guest, Molly Livermore.
Speaker B:When Molly was here, I said to her, are you going to navigate for your dad?
Speaker B:And before she could answer, dad was sat in the background shaking his head very vigorously.
Speaker B:However, whether things have changed or not, I do not know.
Speaker B:But I'd love to introduce the Backseat Driver Radio show, one of rallying's, especially night rallying's, great characters, the one, the only, John Livermore.
Speaker B:John, welcome to the Backseat Driver.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:How did you get into rallying?
Speaker B:Because I get the feeling when we spoke to Molly, it's a family affair, isn't it?
Speaker A:Well, it was.
Speaker A:My dad was a pair and decorator and he didn't really do, he didn't like fast cars, but I did.
Speaker A:But it was all because we'd become a mechanic basically.
Speaker A:And in them days, basically every apprentice at garages had a rally car because you could afford to go rallying.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you know, and your rally car was your road car and you just turned up at events and then if you had to straighten it, you straightened it and then you were back at work on the Monday.
Speaker A:Whether you walk in or drive, it doesn't really matter, does it really?
Speaker A:But that's, that's the, that's it.
Speaker B:Back then, the make and model of car didn't really matter, did it?
Speaker A:No, it didn't, because you just basically picked a car that was kind of fast and you went to a local scrap yard and you worked out what bits off other cars would fit on your car.
Speaker B:What was it, by the way?
Speaker A:It was A.
Speaker A:It was actually a Saab 99 EMS.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which was a fuel injected two liter.
Speaker A:What we actually started night rallying with, which was very, very quick.
Speaker A:You had to drive it a bit different because handbrake worked on the front wheels.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But in them days there wasn't really much modifications about, so you didn't learn about the hydraulic handbrakes and stuff.
Speaker A:But we met a what we could out of it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, so first size car and all.
Speaker B:Really well.
Speaker A:It was a big car.
Speaker A:Big car in the lanes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Very, very unusual.
Speaker A:But I was doing that in the.
Speaker A:It was when we could still have multiple cars.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But the rules on the.
Speaker A:The cabs and everything were changing then, so.
Speaker A:And then we run that into 86 when we had to run it as one color.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And with the rompers on.
Speaker A:But we did very well in that.
Speaker A:I mean we entered well, I'll tell you.
Speaker A:We split up with girlfriend on the Saturday.
Speaker A:On the Monday we went to Mad at Racing, which was the tuning place in Morecambe.
Speaker A:Brian Johnson.
Speaker A:And we ordered half a cage.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we put that in some harnesses and we just went and bought an Ordnance Survey map and away we went.
Speaker A:90 cars.
Speaker A:It was the Twilight Rally, started at Wharton, at Preston.
Speaker A:We got into the top.
Speaker A:I think we're into the top 30, maybe top 20 with it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it was a naturally fast car.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So lads were messing with 13 rescales and minis.
Speaker A:This was a fast car.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:For me, you know, so we did all right.
Speaker A:We did all right.
Speaker A:But you know, I basically started.
Speaker A:I probably.
Speaker A:If.
Speaker A:If push comes to shove, it all started with me in.
Speaker A:In the local chip shop with the firm's Escort Mark 1 van.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Literally.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, Yeah.
Speaker A:I eat it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:My boss said to me I could go to the edge of the estate and then I had to get the bike out of the back of the van and cycle to the chip shop.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It didn't exactly say which entrance to the estate I had to go to.
Speaker A:So I went to the key end and I thought, I can do this.
Speaker A:So off down the key I went.
Speaker A:It had drum brakes all around.
Speaker A: A very early one with: Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And I just flew across.
Speaker B:Drum braking all around.
Speaker B:You, shall we say, you gently slowed down.
Speaker A:Well, I. Yeah, well, I.
Speaker A:When I hit the chip shop, I'd Slowed down, which I was that high that I actually slid down the side of the chip shop.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And then my boss wasn't really happy about it when I got back, but I did get his fish and chase and onion rings.
Speaker A:He always had.
Speaker A:But that leads me to meeting a good friend of mine who's not with us.
Speaker A:Some of you might know him like called Norman Brewster.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:He successfully rallied a supercharged Speedwell.
Speaker A:A 35.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That you might remember from the racing days as well, guys.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well he.
Speaker A:Harry Winder had that and he sold it.
Speaker A:And Norman had a supercharged one and then he went on to building a twin Cam Esco.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's how I basically got that side of the rallying.
Speaker A:Was helping him in his garage.
Speaker A:After I finished at the garage straightening the cars.
Speaker A:And also Chris Rigby, who had transfers in Morecambe.
Speaker A:I was asked to service for him on the Lakeland Stages, which turned into Malcolm Wilson.
Speaker A:And I stood at Shell Corner Garage, which is Motor Mania now in Morecambe.
Speaker A:And you come around the corner with this bright yellow Avenger on the trailer.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I thought that was the most best looking car I had ever seen.
Speaker A:And that's where the Avengers come from.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because that's the one thing you're known for.
Speaker B:Everybody was best scorched.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Was into the.
Speaker A:But why would I want to use some up with cart springs on back of it, you know.
Speaker A:Sorry, I didn't mean.
Speaker A:I shouldn't have said that.
Speaker A:But yeah, no, that was the thing.
Speaker A:We did the service for that.
Speaker A:Then I navigated for a lad and he was an ex motorbike cross lad and I navigate in his Avenger and we did the events like Adrian's camp.
Speaker A:Not with us anymore, Fluke.
Speaker A:We're not with us anymore.
Speaker A:Kurt Bride maybe just starting again.
Speaker A:Average.
Speaker A:We did them all.
Speaker A:Which was, you know, there were.
Speaker A:There were good events to learn on.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and you.
Speaker A:You did really well.
Speaker A:And then we started with it obviously in the road around with the 99.
Speaker A:And then we.
Speaker A:We built a 96v4.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we started on the staging.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And which was a fair spec car, but when it boils down to we didn't have the money.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That should have been in the woods.
Speaker A:We couldn't afford to go in the woods.
Speaker B:So you're a fan of Eric Coulson as well?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And a good friend of mine, Paul Darlington, he.
Speaker A:He rather stabs.
Speaker A:He was very quick in the 96.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But then we bet onto Avengers and never really look back after that, really.
Speaker B:Because, I mean, the Avenger was.
Speaker B:And the ones you.
Speaker B:Well, you do see them very, very, very occasionally now with the Tigers, weren't they?
Speaker B:They were the.
Speaker B:They were like the RS equivalent of.
Speaker B:It was of the Escorts, weren't they?
Speaker A:You could go, this is where you.
Speaker A:I think the rally is going away from this and I think it shouldn't do is that if you was a spectator and you saw a certain car rallying.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then you go, I like that car.
Speaker A:So then you go to the local Ford garage, you go to the local Chrysler Talbot Illman garage and you go, have you got.
Speaker A:And they go, yes, sir, we can sell you a Tiger over there and then if you go to this counter over here, they can do the modifications for it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But what you got to remember is that the Tiger actually isn't a Tiger in the logbook.
Speaker A:It's an L. It's a base model, is it?
Speaker A:Yes, it is a base model.
Speaker A:Same as the Nova Sports were base models.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker A:Because of the lightness.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:They were doing.
Speaker A:Didn't have all the fancy stuff on, so they were light car to start.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A: So then the Tiger had the: Speaker B:And your little eyes would start to sparkle, would be.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And your bank account wouldn't.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:It wasn't good.
Speaker A:It wasn't good.
Speaker A:Those Selby of Lancaster used to do the competition parts.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Around near the old.
Speaker A:Back of the old baths.
Speaker A:They did competition parts for various things.
Speaker A:So that's the only thing that I think nowadays with the modern stuff is I think they've gone away from that.
Speaker A:I thought that it was to show cars off.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and buy cars.
Speaker A:But it seems to have gotten.
Speaker A:Got away.
Speaker B:Well, that's what it used to be, shall we say, without being rude, Working man's rallying was when people watch the works, teams of the top drivers.
Speaker B:In your instance, rallying an Avenger you like.
Speaker B:You said you could go to the dealer and more or less see the car you'd seen in action sat in the showroom.
Speaker A:That's correct.
Speaker B:Unlike today, where a modern rally car bears no resemblance.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker B:Unless you're in one of the more lesser or junior categories where the cars are.
Speaker B:They started as a rogue car.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And then they changed dramatically.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I can remember doing the.
Speaker A:The early mild emitters and stuff.
Speaker A:We used an Escort on that, I must admit, we actually won the rally championship.
Speaker B:Won the Escort drivers back.
Speaker A:Yeah, I won it in.
Speaker A: won the stage championship in: Speaker A:And I think I've won the road ride championship at one point.
Speaker A:The Morcom Car Club.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But we've done, you know, the Flute Bros and stuff like that.
Speaker A:And we did the Mild Emitters and the most admiration I ever had was when the ladder challenge was running.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, man, them guys were mad.
Speaker A:But the thing is you, you'd have 12 ladders start.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you'd have 12 ladders finish.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:They might not be in the best of health, but you'd have ladies going everywhere.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now they were like a tractor.
Speaker A:You had to steer back out of the corners.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker A:But, but there it was a good one minute challenge.
Speaker A:And I turned to Christian, who's a very good friend of mine, who Molly navigates for.
Speaker A:I said, forget he has his own beam stuff.
Speaker A:I said, forget them.
Speaker A:Get yourself into a one minute championship.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's where you get noticed.
Speaker A:You don't get noise being a hero in your Sunbeam.
Speaker A:You don't get noticed being a hero in an Escort, but you do get noticed being in, standing out in a championship.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:There might be 12 cars and you might be faster out of that.
Speaker A:12 cars.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's what people are looking for, that edge.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and there's been more people don't know.
Speaker A:But there was an Avenger challenge.
Speaker A:Yes, there was.
Speaker A:There's an escort challenge.
Speaker A:There was the Mexico challenge.
Speaker A:Which, which, which Roger Clark and all them did.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Friends of mine, Norman, when they did it, said there is no Mexico's challenge cars left.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That are right.
Speaker A:Because they weren't strong, they weren't allowed strength in them.
Speaker A:So they bent.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:They used to bend from the bottom of the door up to the bottom of the back window.
Speaker A:Yeah, Used to King kem.
Speaker A:So the Malcolm Wilson used one.
Speaker A:They just smashed in pieces.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it was a one minute championship.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And affordable.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's like, I mean, it's like a lot of racing drivers today, young drivers.
Speaker B:I, I want, I want sponsorship.
Speaker B:Right, well, go and get yourself.
Speaker B:And I mean, there's one girl driver I know who's now in her 20s.
Speaker B:She's doing extremely well.
Speaker B:She started out doing the little Citron C1s where everybody's driving same car and circuit.
Speaker B:Then she went on to Mazda MX5s once again, old same coil.
Speaker B:And she's done well in that and she's now driving Porsche boxes.
Speaker B:And it's like you said, she's doing well and getting noticed.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:That's what.
Speaker B:It's low on one make.
Speaker A:That's what it's all about, you know, but that.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We went back to the night rally after the stage and we still do the staging, but we use a night rally car which, when we do the northwest stages.
Speaker A:The first time we did it at Blackpool, we were actually on telly five times because there was a road rally car class.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we had the pushrod in the Avenger, which was up to its limits and we were second in that class.
Speaker A:So we got on the telly quite a lot.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But the two cars that we're battling against were both 206 GTI 180s.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the old Avengers just didn't have the legs.
Speaker A:We overhauled one of the guys, but the other guy, we just couldn't.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Couldn't catch it.
Speaker A:And we finished on that, so we got good publicity on that.
Speaker A:But when we did the.
Speaker A:The main.
Speaker A: The other one in: Speaker A:It was like taking a knife to a gunfight, really, because we're running all the interior in it.
Speaker A:We've got a single plenum for the night.
Speaker A:It's a full night rally.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But we still enjoy it.
Speaker A:We still give it the best we can.
Speaker A:But it's all about money nowadays and, you know, it's.
Speaker B:And I won't be for Avengers.
Speaker B:I mean, they're not exactly thick on the ground, are they?
Speaker B:You can get more or less what you want for an escort.
Speaker B:Be the Mark one or two or whatever.
Speaker B:Avengers.
Speaker B:I mean, how do you go on getting bits for Avengers?
Speaker A:Well, they're making them.
Speaker C:Oh, are they?
Speaker A:They're making the bits.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it's.
Speaker A:It's done on an order basis.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So if you want a front panel that you can get a front panel, you can get doors, you can get everything.
Speaker A:Get Ali bonnets from.
Speaker A:But they are done.
Speaker A:It takes about three months to make one.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:You know, you can get them.
Speaker A:I have spares.
Speaker A:I have enough spares for front end.
Speaker A:But my problem is rake waters.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:We did.
Speaker A:Being a bit silly, we did the auto test.
Speaker A:Good friends of mine, Anthony Harrison and Dare Harrison.
Speaker A:Well, Dave, they were both at the auto test and we're going through the barns.
Speaker A:We're winding Avenger up and we come out the barn and there was a farm implement and I used to calculate missing this implement by.
Speaker A:By a very small margin.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But the.
Speaker A:It had an inch piece stuck out of it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I actually peeled the back quarter like a sardine tin.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we repaired that and then on the 061 tiger we hit a pothole then hit a tree and with the back end of it bent the atlas axle because it's got a fully floating axle in it, bent the end of that round and smashed the same quarter.
Speaker A:So we ended up having to put a border in it.
Speaker B:How old is this long suffering avenger?
Speaker A: Well it's: Speaker A:Yeah, so it does all right.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker B:Where did you get e from?
Speaker A:We got it out of a garage in Stoke on Trent.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, of a garage in Stoke on Trent.
Speaker A:It a two door.
Speaker A:So we built it up out of that.
Speaker A:Because I've been around for years.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I know.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:And there's one mentor that helps me with, with that side and you'll know the name of Iver Clark.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:He Ivor the driver.
Speaker A:He is one sound man and if you ever get to his place he's got Avengers in the rafters.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:He is one main man.
Speaker A:He helped me with what we had to do including when I was.
Speaker A:He knew I was doing the northwest stages.
Speaker A:He actually rung me up and said do you want a spares package?
Speaker A:Yeah, I've got a spares package.
Speaker A:I said no, I've got everything I want.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But thank you very much.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I must say of while I'm on the job jetsu I don't forget on the northwest stages we are actually run by Masco College and a really good friend of mine, Danny Cowell.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:And a team of young people.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're absolutely fantastic.
Speaker A:But the main crew that we had was we had chase car when we could use them of Christian Parker and Dave Edwards.
Speaker A:When we busted bake pipe they showed the Marsgaw College last lads and lasses how to do under pressure.
Speaker A:They enjoyed doing it that all of a sudden they had a big problem.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they showed him how to make the brake pipes, how to do it like that.
Speaker A:Obviously Danny could do as well but he had to be in the manager type role.
Speaker A:But I have a lot.
Speaker A:We've just had one of the students work for me on every Wednesday she comes and we've got well college and us and various people.
Speaker A:We've got to start at M Sport.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And she's going to be an Apprentice.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Engine builder.
Speaker B:I mean it's nice to see it's a bit like your Molly.
Speaker B:The number of young girls.
Speaker A:That's what I want who are getting into motorsports.
Speaker B:Not.
Speaker B:Your molly sits in the navigator seat which I must say you've got to be brave.
Speaker B:I tried it and I was no damn good at it.
Speaker B:So did I but do you want to become mechanics and things like that?
Speaker B:Which is great because there is a serious shortage of mechanics.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:Well I won't go into politics of it but people out there will know why there's no apprentices coming through.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Whether it be join route, anything.
Speaker A:But I won't go into that because it'll just get me mad.
Speaker A:But yeah, I find the girls are really good because I'm a lad well old.
Speaker A:There's a lot of lads out there but the girls listen more.
Speaker A:The girls concentrate more.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:They're not thinking about football or going out drinking and it was her leaving do the other night and my God she can drink.
Speaker A:But yeah it's a lot of aberration few of them and yeah I'll help anybody as much as I can.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now I mean you had a hell of a career in like.
Speaker B:Like what you might call amateur driving and everything else.
Speaker B:I mean where did all that take you?
Speaker B:Because I mean.
Speaker A:No, not very fast.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:He did my.
Speaker A:My problem was that in my eyes is an old saying.
Speaker A:Cuz the grass is always greener on the other side.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I went through a lot of cars.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I enjoy building a car that nobody else can build.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I'll again it's going back to the early days of looking in scrapyard saying oh that'll fit that.
Speaker A:We've used Astras.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The one.
Speaker A:The only car that has scared me is we had a rear engine Skoda.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I bought it a week before Fluke Breath and it had a full redline racing all steel crossflow in the back of it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we did flu bre and I'd navigate her in with me and we set off and the first night I left it wouldn't go round.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Through arm core.
Speaker A:At the arm core.
Speaker A:We'd stopped four times on the stage.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It revved to 9,000 revs and we're still leading the class when we got to finish.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But even we never get a saddle.
Speaker A:We'll get back in there.
Speaker A:That's dangerous.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But anyway the alarm was there.
Speaker A:We dropped the tire pressure down.
Speaker A:We put as much and it went really well.
Speaker A:The only Problem is we set fire to it on back straight but we passed an escort on the grass and he couldn't believe it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But then we pulled in front of him.
Speaker A:Then my navigator goes a funny smell in here.
Speaker A:You look around, there's flames in the castle, we're on fire.
Speaker B:So I had the great John Oakland on as a guest.
Speaker B:He always brilliant.
Speaker B:I mean he, he could make scores do things and probably can still make scores do things you can't credit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he proved, like you said about the lorders, just how built like a tank scores actually were when he took a showroom car, put a roll cage in it, some timing equipment and apart from exhaust bracket bust won his class.
Speaker B:And come forth it rac.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:Fantastic.
Speaker A:I would like to just go into the subject of going rallying in Wales with a mentor of mine.
Speaker A:That's Dennis Quinn.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Who was my top, top mentor.
Speaker A:And we all miss him.
Speaker A:Danny Darren.
Speaker A:We all miss him.
Speaker A:I've done all the rallies with him.
Speaker A:I done his car.
Speaker A:I still do his car.
Speaker A:I still look after his car.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I make sure it's run, I take it out for a run.
Speaker A:We still.
Speaker A:I still look after his car.
Speaker A:He hit his head.
Speaker A:Just a quick story.
Speaker A:Hit his head on the scaffolding post once night before and he come back up.
Speaker A:We'll do in the car.
Speaker A:And I took him to infirmary.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:We drove all the way down.
Speaker A:It was the furthest rally we'd ever done.
Speaker A:We drove 30 miles south of Fish Guard.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And he was asleep mostly where I drove all the way down with cow in the back.
Speaker A:I got the car off the trailer, I screw neared it.
Speaker A:I did everything.
Speaker A:I picked him out of the car.
Speaker A:He went signed on.
Speaker A:He got back in the Sierra.
Speaker A:I lined up with the car.
Speaker A:I also drove it to the start.
Speaker A:I got him out the Sierra, pushed him into the seat.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:His navigator, Nick Dakin.
Speaker A:And he set off and he won the event.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:He come back.
Speaker A:I knew enough, picked him out, put him in his Sarah.
Speaker A:I drove it all.
Speaker A:That is the first I've ever driven.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But the man himself is just absolutely fantastic.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I have so much, you know, it's a privilege to.
Speaker A:To look after his care.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and I do a lot of cars for people, but it is, to me it's a privilege.
Speaker A:And he was such a nice guy.
Speaker B:Now you have a.
Speaker B:A phenomenal reputation for rallying at all levels.
Speaker B:Night rallying, road rallying, stage rallying, every other form of rallying.
Speaker B:And you've done.
Speaker B:You've done well at it.
Speaker B:I mean, I've done all right.
Speaker B:You've done all right.
Speaker B:John Livermore is a.
Speaker B:Is a known name.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:For somewhat wrong reason.
Speaker B:Well, I mean, you look at it these days, I mean, apart from the love of doing it and your Molly does it.
Speaker B:I mean, there's very little incentive now for anybody to really get into it, is there?
Speaker A:The cars aren't there.
Speaker A:You can't modify the cars.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:There are some young lads that I see.
Speaker A:Young tongres.
Speaker A:Good friend.
Speaker A:And there's another young lad that's coming up and coming, his name's Lewis.
Speaker A:They're all from my school college.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they seem to have got a grip on the 90s cars that they can still modify.
Speaker A:And one's using a Skoda and.
Speaker A:And, you know, they're using the MG zrs.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:But you've got to remember the problem is insurance nowadays.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, we didn't really bother in.
Speaker A:In our day, but.
Speaker A:But we did insure, don't get me wrong.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But, you know, but it wasn't the same as you going to your local.
Speaker A:Got this and I've got that.
Speaker A:Well, I won't make it go any faster.
Speaker A:All right, then.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker A:You know, there's a lot to be said about.
Speaker A:I wouldn't want to be trying to start it now.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, like you said that 90s cars these days, if you want to make your car go faster, you've got to get your laptop out and show up to it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, in your days it were polishing condenser.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And Weathers.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Used to listen to it again.
Speaker A:Going back to Norman with his twin cam.
Speaker A:I. I can remember, you know, when you think back, I learned a lot of Norman because I learned a lot of body work because when we used to bend it, I had to mend it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it was a case.
Speaker A:But I've seen him with.
Speaker A:Checking the floor.
Speaker A:The carburetor is looking down and for the.
Speaker A:The fuel going into.
Speaker A:See the spray patterns.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:With his hand on the top of the car with his cigarette in it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And revving it with same hand.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:So when I think back, it was just.
Speaker A:We're just mad.
Speaker A:I mean, we straightened one car up on his.
Speaker A:I bent.
Speaker A:I bent the back end of one cow, made it up in his ramp and we had scaffolding pole boost.
Speaker A:Straightened it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But he.
Speaker B:Brute force and brute force and he.
Speaker A:When he, when he's up the ladders with the heat.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, heating it up.
Speaker A:But they just a quick story.
Speaker A:Norman and John Gooch, another good navigator they did back in the day when they were doing the 12 cars in 71, 72, they would a 12 car series in this A35.
Speaker A:Now a big, big wheels on the back of it, umpteen spotlights in the front.
Speaker A: It was an: Speaker A:It do 95 mile an hour piece road.
Speaker A:It would ref like you wouldn't believe.
Speaker A:But that had drum brakes on the front and rod brakes on the back.
Speaker A:And just before he won this the 12 car championship and they won an entry into a big, big Welsh event.
Speaker A:Ronnie knows and all them, they know which one it was and they all went down 200 car entry.
Speaker A:They've forgotten where they put him.
Speaker A:So he ended up running the semi experts.
Speaker A:So you had the Imps Minis Escorts during the rare.
Speaker A:And this A35 green thing was planted in middle of them.
Speaker A:And John Gooch when they come to set off, John Gooch wouldn't get in the car.
Speaker A:He said, I'm going to toilet.
Speaker A:You drive it down there, Norman.
Speaker A:So they did that.
Speaker A:Now without swearing, they set off and they come into a control and the marshal, in certain words that I can't really say on there, said, excuse me sir, there is a rally going on here, can I move?
Speaker A:And John Gooch has sent out to the words of excuse me sir, but we're in it.
Speaker A:And he, he went, took a slot and the car in front went straight on.
Speaker A:And Norman said, you've got this wrong again, using different words than I use.
Speaker A:And John goes, no, we're right.
Speaker A:And he kept going.
Speaker A:He said, if you're wrong, I'm gonna kill you.
Speaker A:And then he come across the control, he said I could kiss you.
Speaker A:And, and.
Speaker A:But the main reason why I'm saying this story is they got in the top 10 of a motor news event in a 35 and it the headlines were Norman Brewster and John Gooch had a good run in nothing but an A35.
Speaker A:So what I'm trying to get over to you is that doesn't matter the car.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:If you're on the wrong road, you're not going anywhere.
Speaker B:You can be in a works car.
Speaker B:If you're wrong road, yeah, you're on.
Speaker A:You can go as fast as you want on the wrong road, you're not getting anywhere.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I will say if anybody's listening that wants to go and have a go, just pick Up a map, get somebody in and go and have a go.
Speaker A:Yeah we, we, we more can run 12 cars it's not well supported but we will run them Please turn up at the events because this will die.
Speaker A:Yeah this will die and it's the best money you'll ever spend.
Speaker A: rce injection cars yeah as in: Speaker A:It's all about my rules where mecha car first of all make a car stop right yeah Put your money into your brakes make a car handle right but you money into suspension the last thing you do is tune it.
Speaker B:Yeah obviously I think that's the problem into anybody who gets into motorsport it's in their mind speed must go quickly.
Speaker A:No it's all wrong it's all wrong.
Speaker A:Make a car stop, make a car and all then make it go.
Speaker A:Yeah you know and you can upset a few of these top guys by you know coming getting close to them.
Speaker A:Yeah in something that you know I mean Christian Molly do really well in that Subaru.
Speaker A:Yeah it sets out more smoke at the back end when.
Speaker A:When Christian looked at the video from last year Molly.
Speaker A:Molly sent him a video.
Speaker A:There's a.
Speaker A:And when they were running car 1 Molly never likes running car 1 if he says that they'd never won a anything Running car one yeah when they run car two they win the event.
Speaker A:Yeah but running car one and then Christian watched it off line they were laughing so look at the smoke.
Speaker A:It's got to be rebuilt so that's the job on the list we will be doing is it?
Speaker B:What will you be doing?
Speaker B:Will you be helping?
Speaker B:I mean I'll help it.
Speaker B:Are you learning about Subaru in pre now?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Well I did him when I used to straightener at Wilding they are a good car but the problem is it's like anything else you can stand back and you can hear them rot.
Speaker A:Yeah yeah no I'm joking but no he's real he's actually been at the garage today he's actually wiring the Avenger he's an up and coming lad with the motorsport electronics and wiring and I'm trying to get him to do it because there's A lack of that.
Speaker A:And he is, without swearing again, very good at it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and he's just done the Avenger.
Speaker A:I've moved some clocks about and he's just, he's done all that.
Speaker A:He's absolutely fantastic.
Speaker A:And how he does it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I'm hoping to he.
Speaker A:He will take that up a bit more.
Speaker A:And then if people in the area need anything.
Speaker A:The thing with Christians, you can trust in what you see is what you get.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Same as me.
Speaker A:What you see is what you get and that's the end of it.
Speaker B:I mean, is it his intention, along with your Molly, to progress in rallying to get somewhere near that?
Speaker A:Well, he has a young family at the moment, so he's just leveling out at the moment.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:So, yeah, yeah, we'll just see how that goes.
Speaker A:But he is so talented.
Speaker A:I told him back in the early days, get in the one maker, let's find you something.
Speaker A:But he enjoys his car too much.
Speaker A:He's so talented.
Speaker A:He did a demonstration at Mar College and he put one of the media guys in the middle and he told the media guy to put his finger on the cone.
Speaker A:And he put his finger in the cone and Christian come in Sunbeam.
Speaker A:Bear in mind, Christian was about 17.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And he come up flat out in Sunbeam and he just drifted the Sunbeam around this guy.
Speaker A:Round and round around this guy.
Speaker A:In itself, so talented is unbelievable.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, are you able to pass on any of your driving knowledge and driving talent to young drivers?
Speaker B:Because I mean, you're, you're old school, aren't you?
Speaker A:Anybody wants to come to garage, I'll.
Speaker A:I'll help anybody.
Speaker A:Any way there are still cars out there that can be modified.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That you wouldn't think.
Speaker A:You know, some of these Toyota Yaris's and these Suzuki stuff, the phenomenal car.
Speaker A:Don't ever turn your nose up at a car.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, they're so fast.
Speaker A: when with Chris rigby in the: Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:The Novas came out and they just walked all over us.
Speaker C:Yeah, the.
Speaker A:The Sambas came out, they walked all over us.
Speaker A:You won't stop progression.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Every time somebody's going, well, that's quick, but I need to do something more to that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You will not stop progression.
Speaker A:But I keep saying that for anybody listening out there, come and do the 12 cars, whether it be Kirby.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Whether it be anybody do them.
Speaker A:You Will just enjoy them so much.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you still enjoy your rallying by the Sound?
Speaker A:I do, yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You know, me and Paul Mount, we have.
Speaker A:We have a ruling.
Speaker A:Me and Paul say if we're not enjoying something on your event, we will just go home.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:We wouldn't.
Speaker A:Not one of us will suffer if we're not happy.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we've never had to pull that.
Speaker A:We've never to use that rule.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I did say last summer, coming to Control at Notesford and Paul has a very long beard and the guy said, what's it like having Santa Claus navigate for him?
Speaker A:So I hope he's not listening to that image.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, I mean, what events have you got coming up this year?
Speaker A:This year.
Speaker A:Now, Martin Taylor's put a little bit of a teaser out about the Devil's Own, which we always do.
Speaker A:The Devil's Own.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So Christian's and Molly are itching to see what this is, but he's teasing us at the moment.
Speaker A:But we'll obviously be doing the Knutsford.
Speaker A:The 061's off, which we do very well.
Speaker A:I think we're third overall on that last time for an old crew and.
Speaker A:Okay, I don't think that's bad.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it's big.
Speaker A:But they.
Speaker A:It's all hype about it.
Speaker A:Never again.
Speaker A:It's not going to run again.
Speaker A:Listen, they've just said they're putting solar panels on it.
Speaker A:It doesn't mean they're never going to run there again.
Speaker A:They've just stopped at the moment.
Speaker A:Yeah, fantastic.
Speaker A:Fantastic venue.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But again, I'd stress again, the 12 guys, the tiger Islands, the Tiger Alleys is so much value for money.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So much value for money.
Speaker A:But you've got to pick the ones.
Speaker A:Some of them are very, very tight, if you like your auto testing.
Speaker A:But the 061 is open.
Speaker A:Yeah, it really is.
Speaker A:We enjoy it when you get Avenger flat out in fifth, down back.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, doing at least 30 or 40 miles an hour, you know, can't give it away.
Speaker B:And of course, you'll.
Speaker B:You'll now be looked upon as a rarity with an Avenger.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It gets on telly and.
Speaker A:And when they did the pamphlet for the Northwest stages, we had the biggest photograph on it, but.
Speaker A:Yeah, but Molly was down there.
Speaker A:Molly's boyfriend, a boyfriend at the time, she brought his mum down.
Speaker A:She goes, that's my dad's rally car over there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And she goes, oh, that's very nice.
Speaker A:Molly says, yeah, I'M getting that.
Speaker A:And I said to Molly, hang on a minute, I'm not dead yet.
Speaker A:But she couldn't out garage other week and wrote on the windscreen Molly, she put her name on it.
Speaker A:But we are building an MX5 which I want her to have a go in it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Will, contrary to what was said when we interviewed Molly, will she ever navigate for you?
Speaker B:Do you fancy having a set in the co driver's seat?
Speaker A:No, because she's a bit fiery.
Speaker A:All right, I might.
Speaker A:She might frighten me.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I don't know.
Speaker A:We don't know, maybe we will.
Speaker A:She's actually got herself a helmet now so she'll be probably looking to do a little bit of staging as well.
Speaker A:So a good friend of mine, Simon Barnes, has got Paul Miller's old BMW and he's at the garage yesterday and did Molly might have a go?
Speaker A:I said, you've got to ask Simon but I think she might have a go with you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So yeah, I mean like these girls, fortunately doing mechanic, they'll be looked upon as a bit unusual.
Speaker B:Won't be doing things like this.
Speaker B:I mean she doesn't do.
Speaker B:It's not a girly thing really, is it?
Speaker A:No, but she's a girly girl.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And she's another one that can drink when she goes back to university her bag clinks.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Cuz when she works in the pub she get when people ask her to buy a drink.
Speaker A:Same as Julie works in the pub.
Speaker A:They work out now.
Speaker A:Well, I'll have a bottle of cider.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So they have a bottle, they bring it home.
Speaker A:So bring it home.
Speaker A:Oh man.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But anyway, it makes me them to be alcoholics, don't it?
Speaker A:That's not good, is it really?
Speaker A:That where me thumped.
Speaker B:So Joe Livermore is going to carry on rallying for the worst he can do.
Speaker A:He is.
Speaker A:He's just getting a bit knackered now.
Speaker A:But we're all right.
Speaker B:We were having this debate before we went on air.
Speaker B:Age is not kind to you in any way shape.
Speaker B:It's not so much the event, it's the recovery period afterwards.
Speaker A:Like I keep saying, and I'll say it one more time, youngs have a go.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because if you don't, we won't be here.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:I would say many ways people like yourself represent what you call the golden age of rallying when rallying were proper.
Speaker A:We're the clubmen.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, we, we.
Speaker A:I know people like Ian.
Speaker A:Joel is really nice guy.
Speaker A:He, he's still a clubman.
Speaker A:But he does really well.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Darren Atkinson, man alive.
Speaker A:He can steal that car.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So much admiration when he can beat the R5s and the R2.
Speaker A:I don't know much about him, but he's running the two wheel drive car.
Speaker A: A: Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And he's taking him to task.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Absolutely fantastic.
Speaker A:And never brags about it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, if you brag about anything, you've then got to go out and do it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You have to live up to it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so you just keep your mouth shut.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's very hard for me to do, but I don't brag about stuff.
Speaker A:What I mean is, I talk too much.
Speaker A:There we go.
Speaker B:John Livermore, it's been a pleasure having you on the Backseat Driver radio show.
Speaker B:The only thing I now know is when you're going out for lunch, we must not ask you to go to the fish and chip shop.
Speaker B:Apart from that, John Livermore, thanks so much for joining me on the Banksy.
Speaker A:Very.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
