Defending the Corvair: A Misunderstood Classic
It’s me, Mark Stone, and in this episode of the Backseat Driver Podcast, I take a closer look at the controversial legacy of the Chevrolet Corvair, one of the most debated cars in American automotive history.
I’m joined once again by Joe Pep, who shares his insights into how the Corvair became both celebrated and criticised, particularly following Ralph Nader’s landmark book Unsafe at Any Speed. We discuss how these claims shaped public perception and had a lasting impact on the automotive industry.
The conversation examines the cultural and industrial context surrounding the Corvair’s arrival, when American buyers favoured large, conventional cars. We examine how its rear-engine layout and increasingly European styling set it apart, and how those design choices contributed to its mixed reception in the United States.
This episode reflects on the broader story of automotive innovation, risk-taking, and the challenges manufacturers face as consumer tastes shift.
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Transcript
I'd like to welcome back to the Backseat Driver, the one, the only, Joe Pep, who when we did our first interview together, said that we will start to produce a small occasional series about iconic American cars.
Speaker A:Well, here we go with the first one.
Speaker A:So, Joe Pep.
Speaker A:Joe Pepitone, or as I tend to call you at times, Joe the Pencils.
Speaker A:Welcome back to the Backseat Driver.
Speaker B:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker B:And to my new friends over in the uk, it is a true honor to meet you all.
Speaker B:And if there's something that when we're talking about these big gigantic dinosaurs of old, please let Mark know, let me know, because that's the only way you get to learn things.
Speaker A:Now, one famous American car, and in many ways it was famous for the wrong reasons, which at times I'm of a great opinion were incorrect reasons.
Speaker A:And they were made famous by a man called Ralph Nader, who wrote a book, Unsafe at any speed.
Speaker A:Mr. Nader was an attorney who had designs on becoming the President of the US of A.
Speaker A:And it didn't work because he didn't even poll 5% of the votes.
Speaker A:But his messier in life was to try and improve the safety of the American automobiles.
Speaker A:It's unfortunate that the car he singled out was the famous Chevrolet Corvair.
Speaker A:Reason being it was rear engined.
Speaker A:Now, one of my opinions is he didn't like the Corvair because it was rear engined.
Speaker A:And as I've said to you in the past, the Americans really didn't get rear engined.
Speaker A:I mean, in Europe we have the Beetle, Porsche 356, Porsche 911, the Tatra, various other rear engine cars.
Speaker A:So we knew what they were like, but Ralph didn't like them because of where the fuel tank was also placed.
Speaker A:Well, as you and I have agreed, Joe, you've got to put a fuel tank somewhere on a car otherwise they don't go anywhere.
Speaker B:That's true, that's true.
Speaker A:Now, I mean, it was produced between 60 and 69 in various guises.
Speaker A:And in my opinion, as I've said, I've driven them.
Speaker A:I've driven two of them.
Speaker A:I thought they were all right.
Speaker A:I mean, what was the big deal with Ralph Nader, who in many ways faded into obscurity?
Speaker A:He did write a book that was very popular and went into general health and safety, but he faded into the background.
Speaker A:And the Corvair has, for maybe the wrong reasons, achieved infamy.
Speaker A:I mean, what brought all this on it?
Speaker B:Well, you have to figure if you look at American cars, they were always gigantic.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you know It's.
Speaker A:Well, you've described them as land yachts, haven't you?
Speaker A:I mean, they were vast.
Speaker B:Oh, my God, yes.
Speaker B: comfortably in a car from the: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:My father, he had a 50 Chevrolet, which I can remember as a, as a little kid.
Speaker B:And just for your listeners, I'm 71 years old, so I could still remember things from the past.
Speaker B:But the thing is that as a little kid, you could lay down in the back seat and you still have room.
Speaker B: In: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And that was General Motors.
Speaker B:And of course they had the fins and they were, you know, General Motors and Chrysler and Ford.
Speaker B:It was like everything was fantastic.
Speaker B:It was like all these gigantic fins, like futuristic.
Speaker B:Look, it looked like the cars could fly.
Speaker B:Now you come out with this little boxy car.
Speaker A:I mean, just putting in.
Speaker A:I'm looking at photographs of them.
Speaker A:As I said, I've driven two of them and I didn't think they're a bad looking car.
Speaker A:In the main they were a two door convertible, a coupe.
Speaker A:But they did produce a four door one.
Speaker A:But as you said, it was America's sudden take on wanting to produce smaller, possibly more usable cars.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And the Americans, you know, it's like everything was bigger and better.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and you look at European cars like the Volkswagen and you look at the Renault.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I, I grew up in New Brunswick, New Jersey, and Rutgers University was a block away.
Speaker B:So you saw what all the college kids were driving.
Speaker B:I mean, all these cars were used, but they were always smaller.
Speaker B:And of course, in the late 60s, my first job was pumping gas for oil.
Speaker B:And the hippies would come in with a handful of pennies, nickels and dimes and you would get like a half a tank of gas.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So for college kids, it was, it was great.
Speaker B:So now you have a Corvair.
Speaker B:And it was very small.
Speaker B:I can remember as a, as a kid, Mike Gabb would always bring home Popular Mechanics magazine.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And this one fella took out the front panel of the Corvair and put a screen so he could put his dogs in the front.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And they were getting air.
Speaker B:As a kid I thought that was pretty cool.
Speaker B:But it was such a big, big change.
Speaker B:Now, I seen at car shows over here, it was a Corvair.
Speaker B:Well, let's put it this way, it looked like an El Camino, but the side doors would open up and I thought, you know, of course later on you think, hey, this is a great idea.
Speaker B:So instead of having a tailgate, you have a side gate and then you could wheel up boxes and things.
Speaker B:And I thought that was really good.
Speaker B:But it was such a drastic change that I felt that that was the start of the smaller car here in the United States.
Speaker B:So now it's all you see is European cars over here.
Speaker B:I mean, yes, you see the Chevys, you see the Fords, everything, everybody has SUVs.
Speaker B:But I feel, and I have to agree with you, Mark, it's something where it changed the marketing model.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Now, I mean, look, I mean, the one thing that was different, I mean, the Americans always used to put in huge straight engines, straight eights, things like that, and V8s.
Speaker A:And all of a sudden here comes this Corvair.
Speaker A:Not only is it rear engined, it's a V6.
Speaker A:Now to the English and to the Europeans, V6 isn't a bad sized eng.
Speaker A:But to the Americans it's probably something you fit in your lawnmower.
Speaker B: Well, you figure in: Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B: And Mark, you remember: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B: like in here, case in point,: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now in the 30s, Ford had come out with a V8.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:But it seemed like everything was going toward the flathead.
Speaker B: Well, by: Speaker B:So this engine had tremendous power.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And yesterday when we were speaking on New Year's Day, what a treat to have Mark Stone on the phone.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:Sorry, but you know, you.
Speaker B: I had a: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the joke was traditional Mustang guys hated that car because it was such a radical change from a gigantic Mustang to a tiny one.
Speaker B:And my.
Speaker A:Well, the interesting thing was with the Mustang, although we're deviating from the model, we meant to talk about the Mustang, the small engine one was a six cylinder, but that was, that was a lady's car if you drove a proper Mustang.
Speaker A:You drove a V8.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Well, as I, as I mentioned yesterday was that I would have to turn the air conditioning off if I was going up an incline.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because the V6 didn't have enough power.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Now with Ronald Nader getting back to Corvair, a tree, it was that the handling of the car, he felt that it was an unstable rear swing axle suspension, you know, now if you're a car person, this is something you take notice.
Speaker B:But if this is something that you wouldn't even know what the heck they were talking about if you were.
Speaker B:Well, let's say you wanted a family car.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and you were a, you were a police officer or you were a mailman or you were the housewife.
Speaker B:This was a perfect little car for you.
Speaker B:When he was coming out with all these things that really, he was really after them.
Speaker B:And the only car that I recall that had a rear engine.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B: Was the: Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:The Torpedo.
Speaker A:Beautiful looking car.
Speaker A:Very, very stylish.
Speaker B:Well, Tucker, Tucker made, let's say this way.
Speaker B:He should have fought before he spoke.
Speaker B:And he made a lot of enemies in Washington.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And because Tucker was buying parts from Ford and he would have like his radios would be in the car off Silco.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he's getting all, he's getting all these different parts.
Speaker B:Well, they basically said, you know, the car is unsafe.
Speaker B:It's like, why would you want to drive in a car that had seat belts?
Speaker B:This was the mentality of people back then.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, safety glass.
Speaker B:And it had a rear engine.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the, the American public again was, well, you had people that loved the idea and then you had people that hated it.
Speaker B:And the people that the Big three basically realized it's like if this car takes off, it's going to kill their industry.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay, so now we have the Corvair and it's 15 years later, 12 years later, and now you have the Corvair with a rear engine.
Speaker B:And the American public wasn't really big on it.
Speaker B:The American public wasn't big on small cars.
Speaker B:You didn't see sports cars showing up until like the mid-60s.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Always seen Volkswagens.
Speaker B:Always seen Volkswagens.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But they weren't very popular.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But Neander.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He tries damnedest to kill it.
Speaker B:And so, I mean, why do.
Speaker A:Given the fact his book was about nearly all American automobiles, why did he single the Corvair out?
Speaker A:Why did he attempt to destroy the reputation, destroy the production of the car?
Speaker B:You know, that's a good question and I would love to get back to you on that.
Speaker B:That part.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:And the thing is it's, you got to get history.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I'm going to have to get back with you later on now because that part I don't know.
Speaker B:But growing up as a kid, Ralph Nader was always, He was like, basically he wanted to be the new sheriff in town.
Speaker B:That would Protect the American public.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, he came out with what I always remember, it was unsafe at any speed.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and I mean, you often.
Speaker A:Wonder if he, you wonder if he actually drove one.
Speaker B:Well, I see a lot of photographs with him standing by one, so I would say yes.
Speaker B:But Hagerty Insurance has a good link where it says, will the Corvair kill you?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and I'm looking at a photograph of a Corvair right now.
Speaker B:It looks like a 60 and it looks like the rear wheels are going to the right and the front wheels are going to the left.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, you know, you have someone that sees this in a magazine and it's like, oh my God.
Speaker B:You know, my aunt C has a Corvair Hydro.
Speaker B:But this was again, this was at a time where you have something that's on television and the news is covering this.
Speaker B:So it has to be true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Nowadays, now we know that nearly everything.
Speaker A:That comes out of the television tends to be propaganda based and take it with a pinch of salt.
Speaker B:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker B:And you know, the, I can remember when the Internet was coming out in the mid-90s and it was like, well, if it's on the Internet, it has to be true.
Speaker B:So it's that same mentality, you see somebody on television.
Speaker B:Well, back in the 60s or the 50s, if you were on television, you were a very notable person.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B: er would say, who was born in: Speaker B:So, you know, the thing is that it's.
Speaker B:The man was making a name for himself and you think about it, he says something negative about this car.
Speaker B:Why, you know, why not?
Speaker B:Let's, I'm on a roll, let's keep on going after.
Speaker B: Because by, I would say: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I mean the Mustang was not a big car, was it?
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B: tang that had taken me to the: Speaker B:This was, wow.
Speaker B:And we went to the Ford pavilion and they would display the new models.
Speaker B:And here's this 19.
Speaker B: It was called a: Speaker B:Well, this was like, wow, this was great.
Speaker B:This is a nice looking car, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:There wasn't something was like, I don't know about this, this was really, really nice.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:And this is where they promoted this.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't know if Nader ever said anything about the Mustang.
Speaker B:But to me it was if you're going to showcase a car, the New York Auto show, the Chicago, Chicago Detroit Auto shows, Chicago Auto show, you know, and you know, people flock it and of course you have these lovely ladies and they're showcasing the new models and everything like that.
Speaker B: at the New York auto show in: Speaker A:I mean as you, as you trace the model from 60 to 69, as I said, there was the four door and then the two door and a convertible.
Speaker A: pecially towards the end, the: Speaker A:It was actually a very, very attractive looking car.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:And I, and I told you in our discussion yesterday was we had a neighbor, it was a black, a black Corvair with a red interior and a white wall tires and a red convertible top.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B: year old kid in: Speaker B:You know, you tell my father and he's like, I don't remember just.
Speaker B:But you know, the, the thing was, is that they were trying, they saw how things were going.
Speaker B:I wish my old friend Norman James.
Speaker B: when he got out of College in: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B: team for The Pontiac Firebird: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I would have loved.
Speaker B:He's passed on now.
Speaker B:He passed on.
Speaker B:And I would have loved to hear his opinion.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Of the Corvair and that.
Speaker A:But I mean, do you remember apart from your neighbors, do you remember seeing many of them.
Speaker B:As time went on?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You would see because then they came out with.
Speaker B:It was like a station wagon.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then they had the, the van vans were becoming very popular because you could store more in a van.
Speaker B:A Cor Air van.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I, off the top of my head, it was either Ford or General Motors that was making the engine compartment in the front, but you still had that shallow nose on the automobile.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And so that was a big feature.
Speaker B:You know, you could, you could fit more supplies in your truck and things like that.
Speaker B:But one thing I've noticed was that like with the European cars, you never saw white wall tires.
Speaker A:No, it wasn't something that really caught on in Europe and especially in England you used to see occasional Rolls Royce with white walls and Mercedes Benz with white walls.
Speaker A:But it wasn't a big Thing.
Speaker A:It's only really when the custom movement took off that you started to see white walls.
Speaker B:Like now you look at.
Speaker B:And it's like everybody's got black wall tires.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and here's something I was thinking about, was that, you know, when automobiles first started, of course, the Europeans steering wheel was on the right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then it still is.
Speaker B:American cars were on the right.
Speaker B:And they were like the same size.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But then it was.
Speaker B:The European cars were always smaller.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And then the American cars got bigger, you know, so to me, this is.
Speaker B:This is something, you know, with automotive history.
Speaker B:And I tell people this, I go, anything that's any car.
Speaker B:Like my old radio show here in the United States, every car has a story.
Speaker B: You know, it's like: Speaker B: was going on in the world in: Speaker B:So you have all this history that goes with it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No, and looking at the Corvair now, I think it's a pretty.
Speaker B:I think it's a pretty nice looking car.
Speaker B:But back then, it was such a radical change in the United States.
Speaker B:You know, the American cars had these gigantic grills.
Speaker B:And here you have a Corvair, it has four headlights, but where the nose of a car is or the ending of a car, there was no grill at all because the vents of the automobile were in the back or in the back.
Speaker A:I mean, during production, it did start to develop not so much a front grille, but it did start to gain front detailing with a larger badge and things like that.
Speaker A:And to make in a roundabout that way, a bit like, believe me, like the 66 COR had a badge on the front that more or less replicated a grill, which of course it didn't need because the engine was up the rear.
Speaker B:Well, sometimes it's like being a past art director, it's like you got to learn when to quit in good design.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the American cars, I felt some of them, like, say, the Chrysler Imperial, they were just adding on all this doodads.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, that really didn't.
Speaker B:They were trying to.
Speaker B:How can I say this?
Speaker B:It's like you wrap a birthday gift in the really colorful paper.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's pretty.
Speaker B:Then, oh, throw on more bows.
Speaker B:Bam, bam, bam.
Speaker B:You know, and then it's, oh, let's put on more.
Speaker B:It's like, will you quit?
Speaker B:So the Corvairs was like, almost like a plain Jane car, as they would say over here.
Speaker B:And like I said, Americans at that time weren't thrilled about it because they were these big land yachts.
Speaker B:And I Tell people.
Speaker B: ke you see something from the: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Bigger was.
Speaker A:Bigger was better.
Speaker B:Bigger.
Speaker B:Bigger was better.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B: And by, by the: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, but if you look at like, say, American automobiles right after World War II, they were.
Speaker B: You were actually buying a: Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But they still had the big, the big nose to house the, the flathead.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And then as the late 40s, the car that saved the.
Speaker B:The Ford Motor Company was.
Speaker B:They called it the Ford Shoebox.
Speaker B:Shoebox.
Speaker B:Ford.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that saved the Ford Motor coming.
Speaker B:Going out of business.
Speaker B:Because it was futuristic.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's what people want it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So by the mid to late 50s, it was, it was obscene.
Speaker B:I mean, the, you know, the cars, you know, the, the Pontiac Bonneville, the, the, the Chevrolet.
Speaker B:And this was back in a period where they would change the look of a car every year.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, now it's.
Speaker B:Cars have, well, I don't know, loving old cars.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:You see these new cars and it's.
Speaker B:There's not many that have their own personality.
Speaker A:I mean, looking at the different pictures of the Corvair as it evolved, I mean, you were just saying bigger is better.
Speaker A:The more chrome you've got, the better.
Speaker A:The more emblems you've got, the better.
Speaker A:The more fins you've got, the better.
Speaker A:But looking at the core there, from a European's point of view, it has a definite European look and a definite European style to it.
Speaker A:And I conclude, apart from Mr. Nader's hatred of the fact it had its engine up the back, apart from the Americans, like after the Second World War, a lot of the, especially the US Air Force guys took their little vintage MGs back to America, which is where.
Speaker A:Which is where the passion for the MG came from in America.
Speaker A:Very few Americans would know what a European car looked like.
Speaker A:But as you said, a lot of European cars after the war were basically pre war cars that carried on.
Speaker A:They might alter the body style a little bit, but ultimately it was still a pre war car.
Speaker A:So the Americans wouldn't quite understand the European car.
Speaker A:If they understood a European car, it would be vintage style, English or British or vws out of Germany, the Beatles or the vans or the Microbuses, as you call them.
Speaker A:So I conclude that could have been the Corvair's other undoing.
Speaker A:It looked too European.
Speaker B:It's yes.
Speaker B:Because Americans didn't.
Speaker A:We had a.
Speaker B:In my old hometown in New Brunswick, New Jersey we had a Volkswagen dealership.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's where you know you would.
Speaker B:You saw what Volkswagen had, you know, the micro buses, Volkswagen panel trucks.
Speaker B:The Volkswagen which I have a friend of mine here in North Carolina they have a Volkswagen where the side it was a work utility truck where the sides would drop down.
Speaker B:So now you have more room for storage.
Speaker B:I thought that was you know it's like why General Motors didn't copy that, you know.
Speaker B:And the thing was is that and.
Speaker A:The thing was just putting in even the Volkswagen, the panel vans etc, they still had their engines in the rear because ultimately they were.
Speaker A:It was still a Beetle underneath.
Speaker B:The okay.
Speaker B:The to me it was a big change for the United States and Ralph Nader didn't help it.
Speaker B:I feel he was making a name for himself.
Speaker B:So let's go after General Motors.
Speaker A:I mean the more I've read up a little bit on Nader and he was as I said he had ambitions to become the president which didn't happen since he polled less than 5%.
Speaker A:But he was a self publicist that I think after a while he realized he could publicize himself all he wanted.
Speaker A:He wasn't going anywhere.
Speaker A:So he then went into the world of at times health and safety which as we all know it's like being told you've to wear a hard hat when you stood outside.
Speaker A:What is going to drop on you from outside?
Speaker B:Sure, sure.
Speaker B:I mean you're in of someone again.
Speaker B:If someone is in the newspaper or a popular magazine at the time like Save Life magazine or Time and he's coming out with unstable handling one car accident projectile.
Speaker B:He had a thing with the he said the engines of the car were unsafe.
Speaker B:Corporate negligence unsafe at any speed.
Speaker A:The well, not being funny if you drive a car too fast any car and I'm not bothered what car if you don't know what you're doing.
Speaker A:It's a case of you are unsafe at any speed.
Speaker B:Yes, yes.
Speaker B:And I mean you see these new cars, the SUVs where you know, they flip to me I think like the American Jeep.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's a box with four wheels.
Speaker B:And I've heard several cases where you got to be very careful when driving because you can flip it.
Speaker B:I mean it's great for the beach, you know if you have the four wheel drive and the tires and everything.
Speaker B:But on the road if you're.
Speaker B:If you're doing say 70 miles an hour and your turning is a little bit too sharp.
Speaker B:You can flip the thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, but, you know, it all comes back to.
Speaker B:He wanted to make a name for himself.
Speaker B:And if I'm wrong, please, I stand.
Speaker A:You know, it's like I said, having read articles on him, in my opinion, it is just my opinion.
Speaker A:In your opinion?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:He was out to make a name for himself, and for some peculiar reason, he chose the Chevrolet Corvair as his means of upping his own popularity.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:And as that, you know, it's like, you better have good friends or deep pockets because, you know, if you go after the big three and you're the little guy, they're going to come and crush it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, I know for a fact Chevrolet did try.
Speaker A:In the end, he managed to sue them for invasion of privacy and various other things.
Speaker A:But I know Chevrolet went after him good and hard because quite naturally, they weren't very impressed with his comments about their new car.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Because it's like you figure if there's a negativity and any product that you manufactured, you know, it's going to be a decrease in sales.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So now this guy who can be on the tv, magazines, newspapers, and, you know, in editorials, it's like free advertising.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so he's coming out and he's going after the.
Speaker B:Going after him.
Speaker B:And the American public saying, oh, my God, they're thinking twice.
Speaker B:It's like, well, maybe I should buy a Chevrolet Impala, which was a bigger car.
Speaker B:Or maybe I was thinking about buying General Motors automobiles.
Speaker B:But now I'm looking at the Chryslers and I'm looking at the Fords.
Speaker B:Ford was always the working man's car.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:As I always thought, Chrysler was your.
Speaker B:Your doctor's car, your lawyer's car.
Speaker B:They were beautiful.
Speaker B:You know, the, you know, like I said, my father had a 59 Pontiac Catalina.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that was a gigantic car.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He loved it.
Speaker B: t was born in, like my dad in: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:All the cars were big, you know, and now.
Speaker B:Now it's.
Speaker B:You're going for a smaller car.
Speaker B:And I told you in our interview yesterday was that dad bought.
Speaker B:He was fed up.
Speaker B: He had a: Speaker B:It was uncomfortable.
Speaker B:It was very stiff.
Speaker B:So he bought a Toyota.
Speaker B:He only had it a year.
Speaker B:And why did he give it up?
Speaker B:It was too small.
Speaker B:So now you have the way people foresight then, you know, Whereas people my age, you know, in the 70s, Small was getting to be cool.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, so, you know, the mindset changes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And like now with electric cars and we were talking about the Tesla and things like that.
Speaker B:To me, the Tesla, the design is like 20 years ahead of its time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Compared to all the other cars.
Speaker B:So the Tesla truck to me is like almost in the same family.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:As, as the Corvair.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, but General Motors, I mean, you got to give them credit.
Speaker B: the car for nine years up to: Speaker A: , about: Speaker A:I mean, you can tell it's like any car, any design comes to an end when it's finally a production 69.
Speaker A:They produced just short of three and a half thousand of them.
Speaker A:So you could.
Speaker A:It was the co.
Speaker A:The model was tailing off after nine years.
Speaker A:But for an American car, a nine year production run, eight bag going.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:They kept updating them, but nine years, for nine years for it to become, to have become scientistry.
Speaker A:Because in many ways an American car.
Speaker A:The name and the model name would have continued under another guise.
Speaker A:But the Corvair, regrettably was consigned to history.
Speaker B:Oh, sure.
Speaker B:You know, it's.
Speaker B:I can't find any commercials, but Dinah Shore.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Famous American singer, big band singer back during the wartime became very popular.
Speaker B:She was a spokeswoman in the early 50s from Chevrolet.
Speaker B:See the USA in a Chevrolet.
Speaker B:The cars, I've always seen her.
Speaker B:And as a little kid there was a big Impalas.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and it was more stylish.
Speaker B:Maybe if a Corvair was a little bit more.
Speaker B:What's the old word?
Speaker B:Snappy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, it could have been, but you know, it's like you look at the 60 and you look at the 69 and there are small improvements in design.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now you would know better than me because as a, as a, as an illustrator, I look at the art of the automobile.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's like the wrapper.
Speaker B:You, you know, the engine, you know, you know, all the little particular stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and.
Speaker B:But here you.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B: It's: Speaker B:Mark Stone is.
Speaker B:He's got money in his pocket.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Would you buy it?
Speaker B:Would you buy a 60, 60 Corvair?
Speaker A:I will say, looking at the styling of them.
Speaker A:No, I go for a 69.
Speaker A:I think the 69 is the nicer looking car.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:But it was at the.
Speaker A:It was at the end of its evolution.
Speaker A:And of course, I suppose they concluded that's as far as they could take it.
Speaker B:Yes, It's.
Speaker B:To me, the.
Speaker B:You know, the real lady had sent me with the race car driver and he bought nine of them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:You know, to me, that.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's incredible.
Speaker A:And he did.
Speaker A:And he did race them, but he put them up to race against the Europeans.
Speaker A:He put them up to race predominantly against the 911.
Speaker A:Another rear engine car.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which means that he must have seen something in them to know that you could actually.
Speaker A:It's like any race car.
Speaker A:The suspension's modified, this is modified, that's modified.
Speaker A:But ultimately, he.
Speaker A:He took the Corvair as a car that he thought and at times did beat the 911S, a car that enjoyed the exact same layout.
Speaker B:A futurist.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was quite surprised when they said the Corvette was too heavy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and a Corvette, it's.
Speaker B: I love the: Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think it's a beautiful car.
Speaker B:When the Stingrays came out, oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:As a little kid, this was.
Speaker B:This was fantastic, you know, but as I had mentioned before in our interview, the.
Speaker B:It was a.
Speaker B:It was a plain jane automobile.
Speaker B:And, you know, Americans wanted big and flashy cars.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And then you get, you know, Ralph Nader, being a very educated man, you know, he saw this and I guess his friends of the day said, hey, go after this.
Speaker B:You know, unsafe at any speed.
Speaker B:Corporate negligence, you know, and to me, it's like people back then believed that if you read it in a magazine or newspaper.
Speaker B:And it's true.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he struck a nerve and he just kept on going and going and going and.
Speaker B:But to me, it's.
Speaker B:It's one of these things where you just.
Speaker B:You better.
Speaker B:You better be right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You start going after somebody that's very big, you know, So, I mean, to.
Speaker A:Bring this to an ending, it's my opinion, once again, that the Corvair was unjustly vilified because I said, I've driven a couple of them and I found them all right to drive, but I've driven a lot of 911.
Speaker A:So the handling, it just felt like a big 911 to me.
Speaker A:So I knew what the handling would be like.
Speaker A:Although the guy that owned the car in Washington state around Seattle said, be very careful with it.
Speaker A:I said, it just feels like a big 911.
Speaker A:So in my opinion, the Corvair was Unjustly vilified.
Speaker A:I don't know what your opinion is.
Speaker B:I had a friend of mine in high school and I told you this, it was, he had some kind of issue where if, if you got in a car, you got smoked out by.
Speaker A:The carbon monoxide, but that'll just be an exhaust.
Speaker B:You're driving a car that, that had bad.
Speaker B:How could I say this?
Speaker B:It wasn't taken care, you know, any automobile.
Speaker B:Yeah, but wouldn't you think the 911 was a better built car than the American car?
Speaker A:Probably, yeah.
Speaker A:They say the 911 will be a.
Speaker B:Better built car, you know, so, you know, it's like right now I'm looking at my computer and I have to agree with you, the 69s, they had more of a sporty look, like the hood kind of went out.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:And whereas if you're looking at a 60, it's very, it's, it's a plain.
Speaker B:It's a plain Jane.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:Another thing that, and we discussed like looking at the 69, the gas tank was right up on the side of the driver's side on the American cars.
Speaker B:But, and they had like you said, the emblems.
Speaker B:I'm looking at the headlights to headlight design look like it never changed the, the bumper.
Speaker B:You had this tiny little bumper.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Whereas the big American cars.
Speaker B:Oh, oh my God, it looked like he could drive through a brick wall, you know.
Speaker B:But to me, yes, I, I have to agree with you.
Speaker B:The 69s were more sporty, whereas.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker B:Design of the 60 was kind of flat, you know, and, and then of course, the 69s were now in competition with the Chevrolet Camaro.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which I thought was a very, very nice looking car.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And when they, I'll tell you, Mark, when they changed the design over for the Chevrolet Camaro in 70, oh my God, people hated it.
Speaker B:Yeah, they really hated it.
Speaker B:But that's a story for another day.
Speaker A:Once again, Joe Pep, it's been a pleasure chatting to you.
Speaker A:Thank you very much indeed for the first of our irregular occasional series talking about American cars.
Speaker A:But once again, Joe Pep, thanks so much for joining me on the backseat driver.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker B: mily and friends a very happy: Speaker B:Thanks so much for cars by now.
Speaker B:Hey, we are flying cross button.
Speaker A:Cheers, Joel.
Speaker A:See you later.
Speaker B:See you later.
Speaker B:Cheers.
Speaker B:Bye bye.
